Which is better, All Clad with copper core or Mauviel copperware?

I need advice from someone who has direct experience with these products or can offter other valuable knowledge. These are my needs.....can you offer some advice:

-- want a quality set that I can use daily
--want durability and good heat distribution
--athestics...like the look of copper and stainless equally
--using copper cleaner daily when washing is not a problem as I already handwash.
--price is not an issue as I cook daily
--not a metallurgist, so I don't know if the performance of a 2 ply of copper and stainless would be notably different from a 5 ply of aluminum, stainless and copper. The only thing I do know is that the copper is thicker on mauviel than all clad....if that makes a difference??????

You're not going to get enough of a performance difference between good quality stainless aluminum sandwiches, and the All-Clad copper core or the Mauviel copper with stainless insert to justify the price difference.

If you buy copper, buy it for its beauty. On this basis, Mauviel is far superior to the All Clad sandwich. I don't know enough about All-Clad's Cop-R-Chef to comment. But in the past, All Clad copper exteriors have been to thin to make any sort of difference, other than cosmetic. At least Mauviel supplies whatever few extra benefits copper brings.

For what it's worth, there are other copper lines just as good as Mauviel, and other sandwiches just as good as All-Clad. Both brands are good, but neither is the be all end all.

BDL

I personally would recommend that you go with the Al Clad. I have a 10 piece copper cookware set and it is truly a labor of love. I enjoy them very much, very beautiful but they require a lot of love and attention.

I agree with BDL a big part of the appeal for buying copper is the beauty. I suggest buying one or two pots that you use regularly in copper and all the rest in non-copper.

I use both. I have to disagree with the other posters though. If you're buying copper for it's looks move on. Either cook or stare, choose. No matter how hard you work on the copper you'll never keep them brilliant unless you don't do anything else. Patinaed(sp) copper is almost like having notches in your gun belt though. Nobody questions me when I pull out this odd colored copper sauce pan.

The All Clad with copper core doesn't really work any different than the all aluminum version. Both products are equally good. You really need to work with both because my opinion may be different. I can tell you that no matter how nice the All Clad is the handle is a deal breaker. What kind of idiot would make a load bearing handle with two sharp edges that create pressure points in your hand? So here's my rule for All Clad, it has to be small or it has to have two handles. All of my All Clad fall into these categories. It performs great and if they replaced the handle I'd buy a lot more of it. As for Mauviel, I currently have 8 pieces of Mauviel copper. The ONLY downfall to Mauviel is the heft. The first time you lift one you'll tell yourself that this just isn't practical but you learn to work with it. I don't even think about it anymore, my wrists are stronger and I learn to hold them with both hands.

If I had to choose (I did and still do) I go with Mauviel. Be aware that the Mauviel at Williams Sanoma is NOT the same products as at Sur Le Table. Sur Le Table has the real product line with the thicker copper (2.5-3mm) and cast iron handles. Williams Sonoma has thinner copper and brass handles. If you're doing copper and you go thin you lost the benefit of having copper. Also don't buy it in the states unless you have to. If you're thinking of multiple pieces either get on a plane and fly to Paris (recommended because it's Paris!) or order online from E. Dehillerin. E.Dehillerin : ustensiles de cuisine et matériel cuisson professionnel. I've bought all of my stuff there and I saved about $1000 (which made it cheaper than All Clad too). After shipping you pay roughly half price. I know all the tricks of getting it and getting back as I've done every method so send me a message if you're serious.

The amount of money you'll save will buy you a new 40 inch LCD TV (or a trip to Paris!).

Oh, and Mauviel is awesome. I really love it. I very rarely pull the All Clad out of the cupboards anymore and at some point it will probably go to a new home. I have all the different pieces of Mauviel that I need to cook the meals I like and I've given up on cleaning them.

I do however have some cheap junk copper that I bough off of Ebay that I hang on the walls to look at because it is pretty.

Grant

The issue I have with All Clad is that over the last few years their quality has tanked and their prices have sky rocketed. I really like my older All Clads but the newer products only weigh a fraction of what they did in the past.
The Mauviel transfers heat much faster than the AC copper core for me.
I agree with Nicko. Buy one or two copper pots and get the rest in SS (not copper core).
In regards to the price difference I suggest checking prices closely as the AC copper core is priced very close to Mauviel copper now. Mauviel does make a few different series. Mauviel Professional with the iron handles is thicker (2.5mm) than the Mauviel 1830 series with SS handles and those the bronze handles both of which are
2 mm. All are "real" Mauviel products. Prices are similar. All of these are very good products. You also want to know that copper pots can be SS or tin lined. Most home cooks will want the SS lining.
As far as cleaning goes I polish my Mauviel once a week with bar keepers friend. It takes a few moments and it's cheap. No biggie.
I would not want to be limited to having all copper pots or all SS.

Thanks to all and Grant, thanks for the incite, website, and your humor! I agree with the cook or look statement. I would probably go with Ruffoni with the little acorns on top to hang for looks, but no way would I ever use it to cook in. I did question the performance of the all clad copper core vs the regular all clad sandwich stainless... I would imagine that the 7 ply stainless Mauviel may even outperform the all clad altogether and the mauviel stainless handles certainly look more comfortable. I was considering the Mauviel Cuprinox "Style" which has the 2mm copper and stainless handles, which may take a tiny bit off the led weight cast iron handles. Didn't realize that the pro copper went up to 3mm, Wow!

My advice is if you're interested in copper do 2.5-3mm or go to Aluminum. Copper has a much faster heat transfer than Aluminum but it also loses heat faster which isn't desirable if you want to cook anything. So to make a long story short if the copper is too thin it's worthless. You can imagine cooking in a thin aluminum camp pan.... put the food in, pan goes cold. In my opinion 3mm copper is superior to aluminum but 2mm is not. There's really no way around the heft while keeping the advantages of copper. If the pan is too thin it will heat up fast and cool too fast.

The Cuprinox Pro line like these Mauviel Cuprinox Pro 2.5mm are ideal.

I will repeat though that it's worth it to get them from Paris. The store at the link wants $359 for the 11" fry pan, I paid $145. The 9.5 inch lid is $105, I paid $40. It's worth the trouble to have it shipped.

My original plan was to use copper only for my frypans where searing was really important. On a whim I bought a 9.5" copper sauce pan too and suddenly I could cook the best risotto I've ever had. It browns onions perfectly, transfers to the oven, makes risotto etc.. It was a wonderful thing so now I have a 4.8", 5.5", 7" and the 9.5". I also bought a 10 inch fry pan and an 11.6". The 10" never gets used because it's too small so the last time I was in Paris I picked up another 11.6 and now I'm happy. I bought a 9.5 inch saute pan and it too never gets used. Both the fry pan and the saute pan will end up on ebay as soon as I get the them polished.

You don't use one material for all of your pans either. I have eight copper frypans/sauce pans, two enameled cast iron dutch ovens, two seasoned cast iron comals, 1 each seasoned cast iron fry pan and grill, 2 All Clad double boilers, 1 All Clad small sautee, 1 All Clad small fry pan, several Wearever non-stick alluminum fry pans and sautee pans. So I have a mix of copper, enameled cast iron, seasoned cast iron, Clad Alluminum, Clad Alluminum/copper and all alluminum and I use them all for different things. They're all the best at what they do. Overall I've ended up with more copper than anything out of trial and error.

Grant

The Mavuiel professional or heritage series with the Iron handles are 2.5 mm. The series with SS handles is 2mm. When I use the 2.5mm at the same time as the 2mm the difference is nominal. A half a MM is not a big difference.

Mauviel Professional Copper Cookware Set - Sur La Table

So you have 2mm and 2.5mm versions of the same pan? Mauviel calls the 1.5-2mm line Cuprinox Tableware. The Mauviel Cuprinox Professional is 2.5 mm and the Mauviel Tin Lined is 2mm-3.5mm. I have a friend who's a chef in Paris that says their 3 star restaurant only uses the Tin lined pans and wouldn't go for the SS lined. Every 6 months E. Dehillerin shows up to take their pans away for retinning. However, I think the home chefs needs aren't as stringent and I think the Professional series is a good medium.

Also I'd like to add that you can change your method to accomodate the pan. If you have a thinner pan just don't load it up as much. If you have a 3.5mm pan you can dump a bunch of stuff in it. I'm sure the 3.5mm tin lined pans work great but I'm not quite dedicated to having them retinned.

I guess what I'm trying to say is there's no reason to go to a 2mm pan over a 2.5. They're both heavy, the Professional line only costs 5% more so you might as well go for it. Also that link that Duckfat posted to Sur Le Table has the thee piece set for $650. E. Dehillerin sells the same thing for $350 plus shipping which is usually about $100 which puts them at about $150 ea delivered to your door. You'd be hard pressed to get any other high quality cookware for that and that includes the thinner Mauviel at Williams Sanoma or All Clad. The savings get larger as the pans get larger. Amazon has the 6.5 qrt Sauce pan for $650, E. Dehilerin - $260.

I'd also encrouage you to figure out what you need and buy them seperately. The three piece set on Sur Le Table only has one piece I'd use. As a matter of fact the other two are going away because I did buy them!

So you can order them from France for a fraction of the price but instead you bought them at Sur la Table??? Why buy three piece set with two pieces you can not use?
Clearly I have missed some thing.
In either event I have looked into ordering from Europe in the past however the weak dollar, exchange rates and international freight made it cost prohibitive.
AFAIK no one in this thread is talking about tin lined options. Those are not the best choice for most home cooks IMO.
As I noted the Professional series from Sur la Tale is 2.5mm and the SS handled versions from Williams Sonoma or any other vendor are 2mm. I have both series. There is a slight difference in weight but it is certainly not so great that I would ever suggest that the 2mm is no better than SS. That simply is not my experience.
Not every one wants the heaviest pot available. Like many things there is a lot of personal choice involved. ;)

No I didn't word that right. I didn't buy that three piece set from Sur La Table, I bought all of those pieces independently from France and ended not using two. My point was that it's probably best to buy the pieces that you want and stay away from the sets.

If you buy from France the wrong way it might cost you more. If you buy it the right way there's definitely a HUGE savings over getting it here.

You can order directly from E. Dehilerin for a fraction of what it would cost to buy the same thing here from either Williams Sanoma or Sur La Table.

As an example I just added up what it would cost for me to purchase my Mauviel pieces from E. Dehilerin right now (with horrible current exchange rate) and if I were to buy them from Sur La Table both by having it shipped and buying local but paying tax.

E. Dehilerin including shipping and horrible exchange rate (1 EUR = 1.46689 USD) - $1390

Sur La Table - $2708 shipped with no tax/ $2659 local with tax
I had to price a 3.5 qt Sauce pan half the size of mine (6qt) because they didn't have the big one. If I would have compared straight across the E. Dehillerin price would be another $80 lower.

The difference in price is enough to pay for your plane ticket to Paris plus 5 days accomodations! You get a trip to Paris for free. :-) And to add to that if you only buy a few pieces at a time which is what I do you can put them in your checked bags and you don't pay VAT or Shipping!

I've never felt the weight of the 2.5mm next to the 2mm so I don't know how much of a savings there is. I know they all feel heavy. I'm sure that Williams Sanoma when they specced their cookware they were probably trying to make them lighter. That's understandable but heavy is heavy no matter how you slice it.

I do however think stainless handles would be an improvement. Cast Iron transfers heat quite well and that goes for handles too. I have to use mits to pick them up after they've been on the stove for very long.

To the original poster - I think you'll love the Mauviel and I think both I and Duckfat are in agreement on this. I do think it's worth the trouble to get them from France though. Heck, I'll fly over and pick them up for you! :-)

If I paid that much for pots and pans, I would not cook in them, I would display them!:bounce:

grantmasterflas I see what you were saying now. I'm not a big fan of sets either. They usually don't make any sense if you get pieces you do not want. I do like the 2.5 mm slightly better but all of the Mauviel copper is very nice. I agree on the SS handles. Both the iron and the bronze handles get pretty darn hot.

I always wondered why they didn't put an insulator between the handle and the pan. Even a stainless steel disk between the Cast Iron and copper would help. Ceramic would be better.

But then you'd get no use out of them. You can buy cheap copper junk that looks pretty to hang on the wall!

Grant:

I have a copy of Dehillerin's catalog and it lists two lines of Mauviel copperware: thick and thin. 2.5mm is the thick line and I forgot the thickness of the thin line of copperware. Get the thick stuff as it'll hold heat much longer.

And yes, like me you can order directly from Dehillerin and save a bundle of $$'s although you'll need to fax them your signature along with credit card number when the order is placed.

I'm not the one ordering but thanks. If you call them (use skype) you probably don't have to FAX the credit card number. I'm not sure about that though. All of the people on the floor speak English. The people behind the counter, I don't know.

The thin line (tableware) is 2mm. I agree, the price difference is nominal and the thick line is 2.5.

Grant

Grant, regarding faxing cc# and signature and without using skype, I AM certain about it. That's what was required of me for the last order I placed in 2002.

The new big thing is Tri-Ply, ie (many of the celebrity chef lines)....technically All-Clad S/S has 7-plys, and some manufacturers count hard-anodizing as a layer. By most reports "Quality" or "Professional" cookware has typically 2mm to 2.5mm in copper covering the base, the next layer is typically Aluminum, followed by the 3rd S/S interior. All 3 metals go right to the top of the promoting even heating, cooking on all sides or at all levels.

But if your boiling water for lobster, corn-on-the-cob, pasta, etc. Do you really need the expense of Tri-Ply? I am building cookware inventory not by a set but pieces that have great reviews.......(to be continued)

heavier the pan if that is an issue, but if cost is not an issue, I always look to buy things that I fall in love with.....I hope you find the same

p&HW

oops I forgot.....copper is soft, aluminum is soft, so when they are dropped they tend to go out of round or dent, etc. the 3rd ply of s/s going to the top makes it less likely to dent or go out of round. This is also accomplished when there is a "lip" around the top of the pan adding strength.

Not to mention when you burn out a steamer because you let it run dry you don't want to be doing it to a $500 pan. Not that any of us have done that of course. My last one was made by Al-Clad was supposedly copper core but the stream of molten aluminum running from the base was 100% aluminum. The copper was just sprayed on the outside to make it look like it was copper. Amazingly it doesn't take much to melt aluminum if there's no water in the pan.

Thank you very much for the tip to buy Mauviel directly in Paris. My fiancee and I had planned to fly to France anyways and I am sure we'll have a stopover at CDG. That way we can have a nice stopover in Paris for a few days and buy some pots and pans.
However, I think you have to pay customs if you return to the US and you bring in more than $800 in goods (if you are a US citizen).
How is that, when you have that stuff shipped to the US - how long did it take for you to receive it and did you pay customs, if so how much?

Thanks, le.gentleman

That's assuming they know you brought more than $800 (or whatever it is) in goods back. ;)

I would have to find a way to live in them.:lol:

Far cheaper to ship than bring them with you. Plus many sellers will not only arrange shipment but provide help with a "creative" valuation for duty purposes.

You'll want to take care of this as much as possible before your trip, without actually paying for anything; thus preserving your opportunity to change your mind if a better opportunity presents itself on the ground.

Bon chance,
BDL

Shipping is indeed the way to go. When the items are shipped the onus is on the shipper in regards to valuation plus there is an invoice enclosed to substantiate the price. You are probably not going to hide a set of copper pots in your luggage and the Customs Offcers do know the value of most items. Not to mention if they are packed in a separate box the airlines now charge per piece for checked items. Most airlines have progressive fees so your second checked bag is getting fairly pricey. How long an item takes to clear customs when shipped depends on the country it's shipped from and the port it enters. I've had a clock from Germany take a week in LA and a knife from Japan take a day from Chicago. I was not charged duty for either shipment. My understanding is that those in Canada aren't quite so lucky with the duty charge on freighted items.

I'm so glad I found this thread. I am currently trying to decide which cookware to buy. It is going to be a Christmas present from my husband. I have been flip-flopping between the All Clad aluminum clad/stainless and the copper core. However, after reading this thread, the copper core has been eliminated and I am seriously considering the Mauviel. Those handles do look heavy, though...

Costco is now carrying a SS Mauviel set which I like a lot better than the new standard AC SS.

Costco - Mauviel 9-piece Cookware Set

May I asky why you prefer it to the AC?

I see this has 5 layers but how easy would it be to get additional peices?

I think the best thing I could say is pick up a piece of the standard AC SS and compare it to the Mauviel. AC is not what it used to be and it's very expensive. You can buy individual pieces of Mauviel at many stores. Your husband won't be dissapointed with Mauviel. ;)

Thank you Duckfat.