Chef BDL,

I plan on doing more research......Thank You

Dave,

Will definitely do diagrams of yo-knives. I don't know if there's enough interest except among knife guys for wa-knives. That said, I'm not in any hurry to post them on the blog -- just really happy to get the suggestion from you.

Don't know why so many otherwise great Japanese knives have lousy handles. There are a lot of exceptions to that rule, though. When I talk about particular knife models, I try and remember to talk about the handles too and what your odds are of getting good F&F.

FWIW, handle quality and ergonomics is one reason I plug MAC so hard.

BTW, Masamoto is switching their HC line from ebony scale handles to pakka wood -- which should fit a lot more consistently; and some of their other knives from wood to a proprietary POM -- which is excellent.

BDL

I think it's clear you need to have a diagram (or maybe a couple, one of a western knife, and one Japanese?). and maybe you can explain why japanese knives have such lousy handles, even on otherwise great knives?

Thanks for the notes everyone. You've given a lot of valuable input as well as some very pleasant compliments.

One of the valuable things about a blog is the way it archives comments like these. I'll be rereading them all because they're worth it.

Don't stop,
BDL

did you open? looks like the website is down. hope everything went well.

The title is good. Catchy too. One of my most used and favourite books is by an Australian chef, Gabrielle Gate, called "Good Food Fast". He has a note before each recipe, a personal input as to why he's put the recipe in, if he has "borrowed" it (with permission) and why he included it. A very good personal touch. His recipes are based pretty much on healthy eating, but the reason I bring it up is that he also has easy to follow recipes which he adds tips to tweaking, if one wants to.

There are too many recipe books out there which are categorised by soup, salad, fish, etc etc. Just plonking recipes, as good as the may be (or sometimes, not), on paper with a pretty picture. Pictures are good, but if the recipe is sloppy - forget it.

Your methodology is certainly very very good, and your knowledge of food and cooking is ...ok...simply amazing.

P.S. Glad the title is not Good Food Cooking...GFC...Global Financial Crisis

Chef,

We are in complete agreement that (normative) good knife technique includes a soft grip -- the softer the better. Your golf comparison is quite apt as well. Bobby Jones used to describe the proper pressure for holding a golf club as like, "shaking hands with your grandmother." Very apt, I think.

Thanks for the input,
BDL

BDL, while I agree with you on most everything I have read so far(more on your ideas of sharpening would be nice) I will have to say that holding a knife tightly or firmly is like holding a golf club to firmly. I was taught and have always followed the practice that you handle your knife with a gentle touch that is just firm enough to guide it where you want it to go. If you are holding your knife too tight you may begin to "bang" or cut with too much force thus flattening your balde prematurely.

A sharp knife needs no effort to find and cut its target, only the direction to get it there.

It's a fair point. You guys deserve more coherence. Point taken.

The whole point of this piece, the previous piece and probably the next few pieces is to get through writer's block by just writing and posting; then fix it later.

Unfortunately, I've been stuck at aborted attempts at first drafts with nothing to show for it. If enough gets posted piecemeal, there will be plenty to go back to rewrite, reorganize, and rewrite again.

I guess I took it too far.

Ultimately, I'm going for a chapter/pamphlet length screed which covers a lot of related knife topics which is going to require a lot of organization and judicious editing. On the one hand, I'm not competing with Chad Ward; and on the other, not writing an inflight magazine article where everything, no matter what, is just ducky.

Where's Goldilocks when you need her?

BDL

No, I think Scar's point -- with which I agree -- is that this bit wanders in focus. It's all good information, but you drift from sharpening questions to knife skills. There's an organizational difficulty here.

Of course, as I know to my cost, this is PRECISELY the problem in writing about knives: these bits and pieces are not neatly separable, so as soon as you start talking about one thing you find yourself talking about another. Once you see how it all comes together, it becomes deeply problematic to talk about little bits separately.

So, I sympathize -- but there is definitely a focus difficulty with this piece.

Scar,

Happy to either answer any question you have or say, "I don't know," as the case may be. If you'd like to see your questions addressed in the "Knives" chapter of a techinque driven cookbook -- then this is a great place to set them forth.

"Reader-driven content" is exactly the sort of feedack I'm hoping for. So ask away.

If what you're looking for is a primer on freehand sharpening; it's something I've been thinking about -- but there are some great ones out there; and some excellent DVDs as well. Look around for John Juranitich's book, Razor'Edge; Chad Ward's book, An Edge in the Kitchen; and the sharpening DVDs from Korin, Japanese Knife Sharpening (Dave Martell), Razor Edge ("Basic Knife Sharpening"), Murray Carter (2 DVDs: Introduction to, and Advanced Knife Sharpening), etc.

If you feel your questions are more immediate and more about your own specific issues, just start a sub sub-thread in the "Knives" sub-thread of the Equipment thread... Well, you know what I mean, because you posted your true steel sub sub-thread there. Anyway, I'll see it and tell you whatever it is I know about whatever it is you're trying to figure out.

BDL

I thought you were talking knife sharpening and then you went to knife skills. I wanted you to continue with sharpening.... Where's that?

Phil,

I'll give you that I got a little creative using "choil," but you've got "heel" and "fingerguard" all mixed up. Either that, or you were writing unclearly for some other reason.

I used "choil" to refer to the back of the blade, and we can agree that I used the term incorrectly -- or charitably say that I used a meaning that's so much in the minority it's confusing.

The heel of the knife is the last part of the edge towards the back end. The very end of the heel, where the edge stops and turns up (if the blade profile is wide enough for a turn up) is called the "chin."

The part of the chin which actually does turn up is called the "return." Sometimes the term return is used synonymously with chin, but otherwise the return is not a part of the heel. The heel is on the edge only.

A fingerguard is usually considered to be part of the bolster. It is either formed with the bolster during the actual forging (typical of martinet forging), pre-formed as part of a bolster which is sintered or hammer forged to the blade, or separately pre-formed and ... yadda yadda. Many knives, including most stamped western knives, and nearly all Japanese manufactured knives are made without fingerguards.

The purpose of the fingerguard is to protect the user's fingers from the back of the blade -- which can be dangerous if it isn't either guarded or rounded off.

What I'm looking for is the term that describes the length of the back part of the knife. It's worthwhile asking around on knife forums and the few makers I know (virtually), to try and nail it down. There doesn't seem to be much love on the topic here -- except from you (and thanks again). I may end up using "back," although that doesn't seem appropriately technical or elegant; and/or possibly stretch "return," just to get another term in so the writing doesn't read so repetitive.

Your pal,
BDL

Kitchen knives are kind of a mutant in this way in that they emphasize this area and most utilitarian knives don't have it at all. Or it's covered in the bolster/handle.

Heel is what the general area would be called and the tang starts there.

In many ways it's analogous to the guard, as dropped edges provide a similar protection in the same place.

I suppose this is why there is no naming convention. The area in the japanese diagram labeled a choil is traditionally curved as that's the primary stress riser between the tang and blade. A squared corner is a frequent cracking point. Not usually curved that much though, just a small radius.

Kitchen knife - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia labels it as a finger guard--like my guard analogy above. The point where the blade transitions from the heel to the guard they label the return, but I usually hear that referred to as the kick.

Phil,

You're making a larger point. Consider it taken. It's more important to be clear than tenaciously defend an obscure term which seems to have multiple and contradictory meanings.

So ... what term do you use to refer to the back part of the knife which goes from the chin (aka "return") to the handle. I.e., the part of the blade covered by a finger guard on some blades, and left naked on others.

And thanks again for calling it to my attention,
BDL

Here's a definition from AG Russell:
A.G. Russell Knives | Glossary: C - A.G. Russell Scroll down a bit to see it.

Spyderco uses it in a way that violates AG's restrictions, but they make extensive use of it for grip extensions.

:: Spyderco Glossary Entry::

Both of which exclude how the term is used in in that Japanese link. However, as a knife hobbyist of 30 years, I've never seen it used that way anywhere else.

Chef Petals and Phil -- Thanks for reading and leaving comments.

Phil -- I appreciate your point of view on the meaning of the term "choil," but think you may possibly be confusing choil with "ricasso," or possibly with a choil on a ricasso. Either would be unusual with a kitchen knife because you don't see a lot of those with ricassos.

Another possibility -- perhaps most likely -- is that knife terms aren't well standardized and you're using it correctly your way, while I'm using it correctly in a different way.

In any case, it's a common term with kitchen knives. Sometimes it refers to the entire length of the drop between tang and chin, and sometimes it refers only to the first part.

Western knives with full finger guards as part of the bolster (or sintered on separately), have their choil just in front of the guard -- running the full length of the drop -- and I belive that the usual dictionary definition includes that.

Regarding Japanese western kitchen knives without finger guards, the definitoin usually refers to the "back", non-edged part of the blade; but in English discussions of Japanese knives particularly, the term may be restricted to the transitional curved area starting at the kakumaki and ending at the straight part of the back.

Here's a diagram: Japanese Kitchen Knife Anatomy And Terminology

Anyway, whether I ultimately agree with it or not -- yours is exactly the sort of comment I'm hoping to get. Keep it up, please, please.

Cheers to the two of you,
BDL

Your use of choil is incorrect to my understanding. A Choil is an arc at the heel of the blade just before the handle. Some knives have a large choil for choking up the blade or as a extension of a small handle.

You'll also see small ones to give relief to stress risers and simplify sharpening at that same point.

Not all knives have choils and I've never seen what I consider a choil on a mainstream kitchen knife.

"Experience says procrastination won’t improve the situation." Hmmmm , except when you are waiting for some good information about knives...
"It’s easy to overrate the differences between the profiles. A good technician will have a favorite, but be able to make the other(s) sing too." How true...
Thank you for the informative post and looking forward to knowing why you prefer Japanese knives over most.