[KYHeirloomer]

Was just reading “Cuisine and Culture,” Linda Civitello’s book subtitled “a history of food and people.”

Frankly, it isn’t written very well. There are some serious historical and research errors in it. And it wouldn’t have suffered, any, by having a professional editor take a look. But her premise is interesting.

What Civitello maintains is that, because of the continual movement of peoples, and the melding of cultures, all cuisines consist of fusion foods, and the very idea of fusion being new is somewhat of a joke.

I can relate to that. My people come from a part of the world where raiders raped their way through every 20 years or so. Thus, I really have no idea what I am, in terms of nationality. And the same applies to the food of that region.

So, while she makes a good case, it got me to wondering. What, exactly, are the hallmarks of a specific cuisine. What, for instance, makes Italian cuisine what it is. Or French. Or Russian. Or African.

I thought this might make a good topic for discussion.

[even stephen]

Its kind of interesting to imagine Italian food long ago......can
you imagine it without coffee, chocolate, tomatoes, corn, perhaps
rice.....makes you wonder....it surely does....

[KYHeirloomer]

Especially when you consider how many "Italian" foods were imported and introduced by the Romans.

And then, of course, all the New World items you mention

[even stephen]

We should start a list of all the "New World Items"......I must
admit...I don't know all of them.....Interesting tidbit....Jamaica
was almost void of fruit before it was introduced by outsiders.

[DC Sunshine]

Interesting premise indeed. How far back does one go, or can we only count it as what is generally accepted as being "typical" of a country's cuisine at this point in time? For example, Italy, think pasta. France, foie de gras. Germany, Sauerkraut. China, stirfry. Britain - fish and chips/roast beef. India, curries. On and on ad infinitum for various countries.

As for Australia, we're just too much of a mix to have a definable "typical" cuisine. Too many backgrounds, and our original people were migrants too in the long long ago. But according to theory everyone came from Africa in the extreme long ago.

Is it defined by the commonly accepted "national dishes"? I guarantee everyone has a different idea of what each country's cuisine is described by. I don't believe its a question that can be answered, except by what is generally accepted as being native to that country. This will also vary from country to country as to what perception people have of particular cuisines, due to the local interpretation.

Very good food for thought.

[shel]

Originally Posted by KYHeirloomer

Especially when you consider how many "Italian" foods were imported and introduced by the Romans.

And how many were introduced by the Jews ... especially during Roman times <LOL>

[KYHeirloomer]

Shel, I don't think there was a Jewish cuisine at that point.

Consistent with the kashruth laws, they pretty much ate what their neighbors did. So, while there were Mideastern influences on the Roman palette (and vice-versa---we sometimes forget that Rome exported its culture), they would not have been particularly Jewish.

When people say "Jewish" in terms of cuisine, two thoughts come to mind. The mixed-Middle European/Russian Pale Ashkenasi cuisine (which, in the U.S., is mostly thought of as "New York cuisine"), and the Moorish-influenced Sephardic cuisine.

Both of these are more products of the middle ages than of the Roman Empire.

One difference is that Sephardic cuisine, at the time, was not thought of as another cause for persecution, because Kashruth and Halal are so akin you really need a microscope to tell them apart, the only significant difference being that the Jews drank alcohol and the Muslims did not.

[KYHeirloomer]

"How far back does one go,"

As far back as one wishes, DC. Civitello contends that even in Neolithic times there was the combining and melding of cultures.

However, she quotes Michael freeman's definiton of cuisine, to differentiate it from mere cooking. Cuisine is "a self-conscious tradition of cooking and eating...with a set of attitudes about food and its place in the life of man."

In other words, cuisine implies a "this is the way we do it" attitude, with some cultures more open to new ideas and foodstuffs than others.

Interesting that in your list you put Italy first. It kind of proves the point. If we skip ahead from Roman times, each of the Italian city-states developed it's own cuisines, based on local agricultural conditions, proximity to its neighbors, and what invaders left behind.

Venice and Florance were, at various times, the gateways to world trade, and all sorts of foodstuffs---particularly from the Far East---were introduced that way.

Then came the Crusades, which embarked and returned via Italy, bringing a whole new set of influences and foodstuffs. There was a Turkish occupation; and a Germanic one as well. And......

Seems to me that modern Italy, in terms of culinary fusion, is the great melting pot. Except that there are still vast regional differences. How they do things in Sicily and how they do them in, say, Tuscony, are not necessarily the same.

[shel]

Originally Posted by KYHeirloomer

Shel, I don't think there was a Jewish cuisine at that point.

Consistent with the kashruth laws, they pretty much ate what their neighbors did. So, while there were Mideastern influences on the Roman palette (and vice-versa---we sometimes forget that Rome exported its culture), they would not have been particularly Jewish.

When people say "Jewish" in terms of cuisine, two thoughts come to mind. The mixed-Middle European/Russian Pale Ashkenasi cuisine (which, in the U.S., is mostly thought of as "New York cuisine"), and the Moorish-influenced Sephardic cuisine.

Both of these are more products of the middle ages than of the Roman Empire.

I'll beg to differ with you. There was a large Jewish population in Rome at the time, living and working in their ghetto, and many of the foods they used and prepared were ultimately assimilated into Roman culture. Please note that I did not say "Jewish cuisine," but, rather, said that there were foods that the Jews introduced to the Romans.

[KYHeirloomer]

Interesting.

Do you know what any of those foods were? And how they differed from general "Mid-eastern" foods that the Romans discovered on scene?

I had no idea there was a Jewish ghetto in ancient Rome. Maybe the only time in history when "blame the Jews" wasn't the watchword of the day (they were too busy persecuting Christians, donchaknow )

[Mezzaluna]

Yes, KYH, there was a large and vibrant Jewish culture in the Rome ghetto. It's a vestige of its former self now, but you can still find restaurants there serving foods like Jewish style artichokes. No clue where those originated though.

I think that cultures which had travel as critical parts of their histories are responsible for much of the culinary cross-pollination: Romans and others for conquest; Jews who resorted to trade because other occupations were closed to them; adventurers like the Norse; and others that I can't think of at the moment (but I hope someone will add to the list). Peoples who can adapt and think outside of the boxes of their traditions are better because of it, IMHO. As much evil as the Roman Empire was capable of, remember that they didn't universally crush local cultures- preserving much of a locality's culture was part of the concept of Pax Romana. Sadly, this was a brief part of their longer history.

When EvenStephen mentioned the lack of fruit in Jamaica, for some reason I thought of Spam being imported to Hawaii and becoming a signature staple! These days it's processed foods that seem to show up. I was stunned in 1998 to see Pop Tarts in a Tesco in London, and Old El Paso Tex-Mex canned products on the shelves in a LeClerc in Paris....

This kind of cultural diffusion I can do without.

[even stephen]

Spam....great for putting a shine on copper and brass....also is flammable and
slow burning....great substitute for sterno....Americas indigenous foods............ chile pepper, peppers, pepper, cactus, tomato, corn, vanilla,
potatoes, yams, pumpkins and the majority of large hard squash, peanuts, turkey, cacao beans(chocolate), coffee.

[shel]

Originally Posted by Mezzaluna

Yes, KYH, there was a large and vibrant Jewish culture in the Rome ghetto. It's a vestige of its former self now, but you can still find restaurants there serving foods like Jewish style artichokes. No clue where those originated though.

Carfciofi alla Giudia (artichokes in the Jewish style) was originally a Jewish dish called Carciofi Arrosto by the Roman Jews and only recently (within the last 90 years or so) was changed to alla Giudia. I will be happy to post the technique and recipe for this dish later on.

More later on this interesting subject, other than to say both fennel and eggplant were, at one time, considered "vile foods of the Jews."

Gotta do some work - will talk more later.

Shel

[phatch]

There's a point in "It's a Wonderful Life" where Mr. Potter tells George to get help from his friends "the garlic eaters". I always thought, Yep, those people know how to eat, help and be friends.

And they did.

Now most of us enjoy garlic.

Phil

[KYHeirloomer]

Goodness gracious, Stephen, how could you leave common beans off that list? All the Phaseolus vulgaris can be traced to the new world. So too can runner beans, and limas.

Also other grains, besides corn, such as amarenth and quinoa. Possibly sunflowers.

Coffee? I don't think so. Doesn't coffee come from Anatolia, or somewhere in the Caucasus Mountains? All those legends about the Armenean goatherd and the dancing rams.