[RPMcMurphy]

Originally Posted by Pete

I have been following this thread quite closely, as I love well made "classic" cocktails, though I have to admit I am more a Manhattan guy than a Martini guy. I just have one issue to interject, to muddy the waters even more. Much of the talk is centered around the "proper" way to make a Martini, but my question is what version of the Martini constitutes the "proper" version? The Martini has been evolving since well into the 1800s. No matter which school of thought you belong to as to where the Martini originated one thing is relatively certain and that is the drink we call the Martini, at one time, from the late 1800s to at least the 1910s contained a dash of bitters, usually orange bitters. So far I have yet to see anyone really mention this in any of the discussion. As stated previously, over the years, the ratio has also changed greatly. So, again, I have to ask, what constitutes a "perfect" Martini? It seems that people from different eras would all have differing opinions.

Hey I mentioned Orange bitters!!!

Perfect is hard to answer, but "proper", id say is any variation pre-1980s!!!


perfect, of course, is exactly how you like it......be it an abomination of a "classic" version or not.

[RPMcMurphy]

if you want to get "technical" with cocktail "names" a "perfect" martini is 1:1.

if you order a "perfect" martini at any of the "reputable" cocktail bar (by reputable I'm talking places like Pegu Club, CLover Club, PDT, Milk&Honey, etc in NYC Absinth in San Fran, even 7 grand in LA for you BDL) you'd get (hopefully) a 1:1.

otherwise known as a 50/50....

here is another article on the "perfect" martini by Robert Hess
DrinkBoy: The Perfect Martini

[Pete]

Sorry, I missed it in your recipe, but reading it again I see it. In general though, my point still stands. I can't recall how many conversations I have listened to between a couple of self proclaimed cocktail snobs (I am not refering to this conversation) where the 2 will argue endlessly regarding what makes the "perfect," "classic" Martini and I would say that only 1 in 15 or 20 of those conversations includes any mention of bitters. I fully agree that one should drink what one likes whether it is made in the "classic" style or some modern abomination, as you so eloquently put it RPM, but I do think that people are missing out when they don't take the time to try a cocktail made as it should be, by a bartender that knows what they are doing. A great example of that is the Old Fashioned drank here in Wisconsin. First off it is made with Brandy instead of whiskey, then, here in Wisconsin, most bartenders can't be bothered with separately adding bitters and the sugar either in granulated form or as simple syrup, so they often make a really poor premix of bitters and simple syrup that tastes horrible. Next you have the choice of it being sweet (sprite or sierra mist or something like that), sour (sour mix) or seltzer or pres (short for presbytrian-1/2 selter 1/2 sweet). The large tumbler that it is made in is then filled with this mixer. The final desecration is the garnish which can range from the standard orange and cherry to olives, pickled onions, mushrooms, etc. It's no wonder I rarely drink these anymore. I can't find a bartender that makes a good one here in Wisconsin.

[RPMcMurphy]

Originally Posted by Pete

Sorry, I missed it in your recipe, but reading it again I see it. In general though, my point still stands. I can't recall how many conversations I have listened to between a couple of self proclaimed cocktail snobs (I am not refering to this conversation) where the 2 will argue endlessly regarding what makes the "perfect," "classic" Martini and I would say that only 1 in 15 or 20 of those conversations includes any mention of bitters. I fully agree that one should drink what one likes whether it is made in the "classic" style or some modern abomination, as you so eloquently put it RPM, but I do think that people are missing out when they don't take the time to try a cocktail made as it should be, by a bartender that knows what they are doing. A great example of that is the Old Fashioned drank here in Wisconsin. First off it is made with Brandy instead of whiskey, then, here in Wisconsin, most bartenders can't be bothered with separately adding bitters and the sugar either in granulated form or as simple syrup, so they often make a really poor premix of bitters and simple syrup that tastes horrible. Next you have the choice of it being sweet (sprite or sierra mist or something like that), sour (sour mix) or seltzer or pres (short for presbytrian-1/2 selter 1/2 sweet). The large tumbler that it is made in is then filled with this mixer. The final desecration is the garnish which can range from the standard orange and cherry to olives, pickled onions, mushrooms, etc. It's no wonder I rarely drink these anymore. I can't find a bartender that makes a good one here in Wisconsin.

an old fashioned is another age-old debate.

first its muddled fruit or not.....or muddled fruit and removed, or fruit garnish....

then its what spirit....you can old fashioned any spirit really. but brandy and rye or bourbon are most common.

then there is the addition of sweetness, depending on sugars, and water or seltzer or club or what have you.

for me....and for what I consider most traditional, is 1 cube of sugar, muddled with enough water to disolve it, then brandy or rye, and bitters. (angostura) I particularly like fruit (half an orange slice and a cherry) muddled with the sugar and water than removed...before adding the spirit, then garnishing with the other half of the orange and another cherry, but i can do fruitless too...what I dont care for is it being topped with anything else to water it down. for me, thats the ices job. granted topping with club is listed as "optional" in some classic recipes.

Im a big ran of rye, but lately....i admit ive made them with Four Roses bourbon and enjoyed.



next. lets argue the sazerac!!! haha. for me, dale degroffs formula mixing 50/50 rye and cognac does it for me (ive had it made by him and its amazing and its how i usually drink it, NRatched too its her favourite drink!) Lucid absinthe rinse, no ice for me. Peychaudes and 1 sugar cube (demerara or however you spell it, right now, I'm a little tipsy, its my birfday and Nratched cooked a **** GOOD dinner)

when we advance a little more I'll tell you about the kickass peruvian bitters I obtained for my Pisco sours.

[Pete]

For me an Old Fashioned needs to be whiskey, and it had better be bourbon. I can even accept Rye, though its my last choice. Fruit has to be muddled with the sugar, then add the bitters. Add ice and then the bourbon. Give a good stir then just a slight splash of seltzer, but only a small splash. Garnish with an orange slice and a cherry (preserved sour cherries if at all possible).

[Suzanne]

A head's up: like Joy of Cooking and How to Cook Everything, Mr. Boston is coming out with smaller, single-topic books. First up will be Holidays, to be followed by Summer. Each has about 100 recipes. Don't know if they are taken from the big book, but I suspect not. There is a long list of contributors for each, including many of the big names in cocktails: Dale DeGroff, Audrey Saunders, Robert Hess, etc. etc.

(Yes, these are another of the projects I've been working on. Just the editing; I'm mostly off drinking these days. )

[RPMcMurphy]

Originally Posted by Suzanne

A head's up: like Joy of Cooking and How to Cook Everything, Mr. Boston is coming out with smaller, single-topic books. First up will be Holidays, to be followed by Summer. Each has about 100 recipes. Don't know if they are taken from the big book, but I suspect not. There is a long list of contributors for each, including many of the big names in cocktails: Dale DeGroff, Audrey Saunders, Robert Hess, etc. etc.

(Yes, these are another of the projects I've been working on. Just the editing; I'm mostly off drinking these days. )

Sounds exciting. Wonder if Audrey is putting her pine infused brandy cocktail in there (probably holiday) somewhere! I had one a couple of days ago at Pegu made with the new beefeater 24, and it was great....even in the spring!

Just hope they don't, how do I say this......screw it up...by writing recipes for the "masses" of sweet vodka cocktails. I don't expect them to....but, well...I'll be optimistic!