Cutco knives?

[vloglady]

I see some ones for good prices on Ebay. But they look too inexpensive to be that good. Have heard really good things about them.

Why is Ebay so cheap?

Thansk.

[Mezzaluna]

Because the knives are c**p. We've had discussions about this before: http://www.cheftalkcafe.com/forums/s...ighlight=Cutco

Save your money and buy the good stuff!

[Smithy]

There are at least eight disadvantages to Cutco knives.

1)Inferior tempering. Cutco is stamped instead of forged. All best knives are forged (with the exception of Henckels Twinstar which is using a new technology called sintering) because forged knives make a better edge among other reasons. All the worst and cheapest knives are stamped because it is cheaper and easier. The forging process randomises the metal particles for a slightly tougher knife. It also permits the differing thicknesses of metal which is necessary for a heavy raised bolster between the knife handle and knife blade. Forged knives have more metal than stamped knives and thus are heavier. The forging process enables extra metal proportioning to give the knife perfect balance. Most prefer the weight of a forged knife. It feels heftier and more substantial. Forged knives generally are thicker, have more heft, hold an edge better, provide bolsters which brings better balance and safety, and obviously have been made with a lot more care and craftmanship. The forging process enhances the flexibility (making it less likely to snap to break), density, and hardness, and better solidifies the structure of a knife.

2)Steel. Cutco claims they use the highest quality steel money can buy. They call it high carbon surgical grade steel. While this is subjective Cutco uses 440A grade steel while most top of the line knives (which is where Cutco is priced at) uses 440C, which is higher in carbon. 440C is more expensive to make, buy, and manufacture with. 440C also makes a sharper edge, and holds it better. Because of it's grain structure 440C is also more stain resistant. And while 440C steel is generally only found in top of the line kitchen knives, 440A is often found in the cheaper, run of the mill type kitchen knives. Where they got the surgical grade label is beyond me, 440A steel doesn't have a regular grade and a surgical grade. When you think of surgical instruments you think sanitary, expensive, and high quality- it's just sales hype.

3)Lack of bolsters provides for inferior balance and less safety.

4)Double-D edge. Most cooking enthusiasts prefer a straight edge which the double-d is not and you cannot sharpen Cutco edges yourself whenever you please. Salespeople use the ol' rope a dope trick when giving a presentation because the serrated pattern cuts tougher objects better, but any chef or cooking enthusiast will tell you that kitchen knives are made to cut through food like meat, bread, and tomatoes- not rope or leather. For that a utility knife is best- and there's are plenty of utility knives that cut through rope and leather better than Cutco's.

Cutco's salespeople swear up and down double-d edges are neither straight, nor serrated but unique (don't all salespeople?). The Double-D edge is in fact another type of serrated edge. Cutco calls their serrated edge "Double D" just like Spyderco calls their serrated edges "Spyderedge." Except Spyderco isn't trying to fool anyone and markets their as a superior serration pattern while Cutco tries to claim theirs is different.

But anyone who knows anything about knives can tell you the ^^^^ pattern on the edge (take a look at the cutco.com website for an explanation and drawing, currently at: http://www.cutco.com/jsp/catalog/features.jsp ) makes it a serrated edge. The whole double-d thing is just hype like everything else about the knives. The Double-D edge is not patented and never was.

The problem with the serrated pattern is that it doesn't make a clean cut- little nicks and tears in the food is made. Serrated knives are generally only good for fibrous vegetables and bread- where it is needed. Cutco reps may claim that it makes a clean cut, but this is only true for cutting stuff you can press straight down on (like butter), but for things you need to slide the blade back and forth on (like meat) the teeth will tear it up. Serrated edges are also somewhat more difficult to clean.

As for sharpness, you may think they stay razor sharp but in reality only the crevices of the blade edge are. You see serrated edges like the Double-D's look like this: ^^^^^^ when contacting the food the points get worn down rather quickly but the crevices stay sharp, so it may seem like it is razor sharp but in reality only the crevices are. It can never be as sharp as a well maintained plain edge, the edge preferred by cooking enthusiasts and professionals. Maybe a serrated edge is better at cutting rope (the rope a dope trick), but the best kitchen knives are not made to cut through rope, they are made to make a good, clean cuts on food. Master chef Wylie Dufresne just recently told GQ magazine in their Sept '03 edition, "I have plenty of friends whose parents have Cutco in a knife block. You pull them out and they're all as dull as can be."

Other knives you can sharpen yourself whenever you want, but with Cutco knives you need Cutco to sharpen them for you. I will refer you once again to Cutco's own website: at cutco.com, currently here:
http://www.cutco.com/jsp/customer/guarantee.jsp
"For resharpening of Double-D® or straight-edged knives, send them along with a return shipping and handling fee of $5.00 (1-3 items) or $8.00 (4 or more items) to the CUTCO address below."
You have to pay for them to be sent in and sent back all the while without your knives. I've heard of representatives of the company coming out and sharpening them for you, but this is by no means guranteed to happen so there is obviously good reason they don't state this on their website.

5)Handles. Of course this is subjective but the handles are different from any of the others and some people find them uncomfortable (especially those with extremely large or small hands since they were designed for the average hand), some others find them dorky looking and wouldn't want to set them out on the dinner table. Sure the handles were designed to be comforable- all handles are designed that way! And like all good salepeople, Cutco even has a good story to tell about it. That doesn't mean they actually ARE comfortable. Consumer Reports, the leading consumer magaine, also found the handles to be uncomfortable. The handles are made of what Cutco call "Thermoresin" and thermo=heated and resin=plastic, injection molded plastic is the absolute cheapest material cost and method possible. And the type of plastic the handles are made out of, celluloid plastic, is highly nitrated and self-oxidizing like the gun cotton in smokeless gun powder (to a lesser extent) thus highly flammable- not good for a kitchen knife. Although the rivots are made of what they call "nickel-siver", there is no silver in them. They call it nickel-silver because it has a silver color to it. The handles have no current patent on them, other companies could copy them but choose not to. Wear Ever cookware had handles designed by the same person in the 30's and 40s, they have since dumped this design.

6)Corrosion. Many people (including Consumer Reports magazine) believe that Cutco blades corrode a little easier than most. Consumer Reports seemed to hint that it may have to do with the type of metal used, polishing, or coating.

7)Restrictions when buying. Since you can only buy from a Vector rep, you are forced to select your rep with care because a flock of amateur sales reps can and will include a range from the best professionals through the worst rip off artists.

8)Price. Many will agree that Cutco is not best for commercial use but it is priced for commercial use. You can get a 7 piece block of top of the line hand-forged, bolstered, well balanced Wusthof-Trident Grand Prix for $249. A similar set of Cutco can easily run you $300-$400. Tramontina Professional is supposed to be the best value having the same features as the best knives but at about 1/3 the price. There may also be hidden costs added (such as shipping & handling, C.O.D., sales tax, etc.) that make the actual price much higher that the displayed and originally discussed price.

Cutco is sold at prices very similar to knives that are top of the line yet are not as good as them in almost every way except they do have comparable rockwell hardness, are full tang, and have a good guarantee. I wouldn't spend my hard earned money on guarantees though and the other qualities you can find in much cheaper knives.

The average household has very cheap, low quality knives that generally only last 5-15 years. So when they hear there is a forever guarantee it becomes the main selling point. What they don't know is all knives in that price range are built to last a lifetime and with proper care they definately will. The only way they won't is if you abuse them, which Cutco's guarantee doesn't even fully cover. Also, in case it doesn't last a lifetime, many top of the line knives carry a lifetime guarantee.

Cutco's money back guarantee is for 15 days. Most large retail chains like Sears and Walmart carry a 30 day money back satisfaction guarantee. The forever guarantee is nice, but a couple nitpicks: "Should you damage your CUTCO through misuse or abuse, we will replace the item for one half of the current retail price." it needs to be sent in to Cutco "with an explanatory note" and Cutco is the sole determinor of what is misuse or abuse (such as chipping your knife), also the "guarantee is intended solely for consumer/in-home use." Don't believe me? Check out the Cutco website yourself:
http://www.cutco.com/jsp/customer/guarantee.jsp

I you are looking for the guarantee, Henckels Twinstar and Messermeister (among many others) both offer similar lifetime warrantees and are of better quality (in many people's opinions). If you must have the best kitchen knives available, Wusthof Trident Grand Prix is highly regarded as the best kitchen knives money can buy and the prices are similar to Cutco's. If you are looking for brand name, Henckels is considered the #1 selling brand in the world, been in business since 1731, and they will replace their twinstar knives that have a "diamond edge" with new ones if they get dull. For the best value, you can find high quality, forged, full tang knives with bolsters at a very reasonable price (about 1/3 that of Cutco's) you might want look into the Tramontina Professional Series which is regarded as the best value in the knife industry. If you don't want to spend very much money on knives, the Forschner Victoronox is made by the same people who make Swiss Army Knives and considered the best of the very cheap kitchen knives. If you don't want to sharpen your knives, you might want to look at the Regent Sheffield Infinity Edge or Henckels Twinstar depending on how much you want to spend. Most retail stores have a 30-day money back guarantee.

My opinion is that Cutco is not worth their price and I'm sure most professionals would agree. In fact you would have great difficulty finding one culinary arts school, master chef, or knife expert that recommends this brand. Norman Weinstein, a nationally recognized knife skills instructor who's taught since 1995 at the Institute of Culinary Education was quoted by the Baltimore Sun newspaper as saying "Why, why, would you buy such a knife?"
http://www.thecomplaintstation.com/c...picID=00034515
Cutco is able to sell their knives at such a high price because they are being sold to people by their sons, nephews, and granddaughters (basically people who care for them and trust them, or their friends, and know very little about knives). Consumersearch.com looked over all the professional reviews available and while 11 professionals liked Wusthof Trident the best, only one liked Cutco and that one only liked Cutco compared to other stamped knives:
http://www.consumersearch.com/www/ki...fullstory.html

The bottom line is that no brand or set is best for everyone and you should check them all out and compare to decide which is best for your needs, wants, and preferences. The retail store is probably the best place to do this, unfortunately Cutco is not sold there.

[kuan]

Gotta save this one for the archives.

Kuan

[phatch]

I agree, Cutco is crap, but I have some issues with other of Smithy's explanations.

1)Inferior tempering. Cutco is stamped instead of forged. All best knives are forged (with the exception of Henckels Twinstar which is using a new technology called sintering) because forged knives make a better edge among other reasons. All the worst and cheapest knives are stamped because it is cheaper and easier. The forging process randomises the metal particles for a slightly tougher knife. It also permits the differing thicknesses of metal which is necessary for a heavy raised bolster between the knife handle and knife blade. Forged knives have more metal than stamped knives and thus are heavier. The forging process enables extra metal proportioning to give the knife perfect balance. Most prefer the weight of a forged knife. It feels heftier and more substantial. Forged knives generally are thicker, have more heft, hold an edge better, provide bolsters which brings better balance and safety, and obviously have been made with a lot more care and craftmanship. The forging process enhances the flexibility (making it less likely to snap to break), density, and hardness, and better solidifies the structure of a knife.

This statement confuses forging and tempering. Forging is a shaping process accomplished through heat and applied pressure (hammering). It also works out a few impurities. In hand cast steel, forging didn't randomise things but improved the crystal lattice. In comparison toI modern casting methods (one of which is sintering and the most prevalent for quality steels) forging does not create as good a metal pattern. Randomness in the crystal lattice of steel is where breaks and other flaws from impurities form. You want long clean lattices. Tempering also affects lattices, not just forging.

Stainless Steel is terrible to forge and very rarely is it actually fully forged. What you see now is a "drop-forged" term. Somewhat different animal and an automated one at that. This is also only a profile process. The rest of the process is the same as stock removal.

http://www.agrussell.com/knife_infor...tml#DropForged
Drop Forged
Also called closed die forging, the form of the finished item is built into the die, the steel is heated and the hammer forms the plastic steel into the recesses of the die.

Tempering is a heat and time process that sets the chosen compromise between toughness and brittleness. Ideally this includes a cryo quench in high-quality steels. The selected tempering is critical to the final quality of the knife. It is true that Cutco has a poor temper, but mostly because 440A is a poor steel for this purpose. It's very rust resistant and is popular for dive knives however. Cutco having a poor corrosion record with this steel is another sign of cut corners.

Stamping/cutting. Stamping is certainly a cheaper method. Really good steels don't take to stamping. But modern technology changes this argument too with the introduction of the stock removal method of crafting knives. And really high end knives and cheap ones are produced this way. Stamping is a 2D forming method that knocks out the knife profile in a thinnish piece of bar stock. Good steels are laser cut for profile. In both cases, the stock removal method then grinds the stock for the primarly edges and secondary edges as well as drilling for screws or pins. Then comes the tempering. Final edge and polish and handle mounting. For stainless steel, this is the only economically feasible approach and modern steels make this more reliable a product for a set level of quality.

2)Steel. Cutco claims they use the highest quality steel money can buy. They call it high carbon surgical grade steel. While this is subjective Cutco uses 440A grade steel while most top of the line knives (which is where Cutco is priced at) uses 440C, which is higher in carbon. 440C is more expensive to make, buy, and manufacture with. 440C also makes a sharper edge, and holds it better. Because of it's grain structure 440C is also more stain resistant. And while 440C steel is generally only found in top of the line kitchen knives, 440A is often found in the cheaper, run of the mill type kitchen knives.

Most of the high end kitchen knives don't tell you what they use. Based on price and the RC of the finished product, I don't think they're 440C. Most kitchen knives are tempered to about 56 RC (Rockwell hardness scale), about the same as Cutco. That's pretty soft for a knife. 440C will go appreciably higher up to 59-60 for a much better performing blade for not much more cost.

440C is not more stain resistant. 440A has .65-.75% carbon and 16-18% Chromium. 440C has .95-1.2% carbon and the same Chromium. The higher carbon of 440C promotes more rust (and also the support for a higher temper). It's not grain structure.

But there are many better stainless steels than 440C for a kitchen knife if you really want the best. Take a look at S30V.

3)Lack of bolsters provides for inferior balance and less safety.

I'm not sure where you're going with this statement. I think it's more of a personal opnion for what people like. I happen to strongly dislike the full blade width bolster and you like it, or at least some forms of it.

From a knife perspective, bolsters have very little function beyond aesthetics. They can be part of a balance design, but it's better to run a tapered tang for balance and strength purposes.

Anyway, stock removal supports easy incorporation of bolsters so it's not the stock removal method that's the problem for bolsters. Additionally, many good knives have bolsters added later of a cheaper metal for ease of manufacture and cost savings.

If the safety claim is for some protection from riding up on the sharp edge of the knife, the dropped edge of the kitchen knife design already performs that task. If you have another perspective on how a bolster adds safety, I'm interested in hearing it.


Phil

[Smithy]

Good info Phatch,
Besides S30V, the VG-10 some Japanese knives like Global use is a bit more advanced too. From what I understand about tempering, heating and cooling are not the only factors involved. The technique pressure is applied such as that in forging is another. Of course the pressure and forming technique and craftsmanship aren't the only reasons professionals and experts almost always prefer forged. The thickness, heft, and balance of forged (or sintered) blades give them a tremendous advantage because that is what cooking professionals and enthusiasts like. GQ magazine did a kitchen knives review in Sept of last year that included what the knives weighed in at. Out of Henckels 5-Star, Global, Wustof, Cutco, and Kyocera chef's knives the only knife lighter than Cutco was Kyocera, the only knife not made of steel but ceramic instead. The blade on Cutco is thinner and more flimsy, and the lack of heft makes it feel like less quality. Bolsters not only keep you hand from slipping onto the blade (something a dropped edge, which isn't on all types of knives, doesn't cover as well) it also provides weight in a specific area for designed for better balance. Hollow handles like that on Global's can also give better balance.

[chiffonade]

Cutco knives are actually excellent. They feel great in the hand and are deadly sharp. I find them enjoyable to use. The best thing is to see the knives in person and have a demonstration. I got mine years ago and they hold up like champs. They benefit (as all knives do) from a quick sharpening between 2nd or 3rd uses.

[hipjoint]

i am wondering about this "balanced" knife bit ... what is it??

given a certain size for a handle, are we talking about if you put the
knife on a finger just behind the bolster the knife will lay horizontally??

if so, by definition, NO paring knife will be balanced, it will be handle heavy.
and how much will a handle have to weigh to balance a forged 10" chef's
blade?? unless it is very heavy, NO handle can balance such a large blade,
or else the whole knife would feel like it weighs a ton. and what about
chinese cleavers? no balance at all but a chinese chef can use that blade and out-cut, out chop, out-slice just about anyone!! and guess what ... chinese cleavers have NO bolsters, NO rivets in the handle, and NO full
tang construction! so 250 million (or so) chinese chefs are using inferior knives and don't know it?