Sabatier?

[CookingAngry]

You recommended Japanese MAC, which admittedly are prettly cool, especially the series with tungsten that yields a HRC 60+. I also have liked the Misonos since I held one about a month back. But I was looking though threeds and saw this japaneschefknife.com/FKHSeries.html.

Any thoughts?

I only ask because the price is what it is. It would certainly be a knife that forced me to have good sharpening technique.

[boar_d_laze]

All I know is that for some unknown reason JCK, which is really a guy named Koki, replaced the Hiromoto budget carbon line and Tojiro budget stainless with Fujiwara. The buzz on the carbon (FKH) models is that, as far as steel, they're excellent value. I don't know anything about where the steel was sourced, it's formula, hardening methods or anything like that. Maybe someone on Fred's Cutlery Forum or the Knife Forum. Both have a lot of guys who talk frequently with Koki.

Anyway, it's priced like at entry-level for both carbon and Japanese knives -- which is fair, since that's what it is. The general reputation of this type of knife in that price range is that fit and finish can be less than sterling -- but nothing that can't be sanded out. Also, the actual edge-shaping tends to be hurried, and/or done by the least experienced guy in the factory. This means you may have to spend some quality time with a dremel, some sand paper and your stones. But that's typical of the budget lines of small Japanese manufacturers. Remember, these companies tend to be pretty small. MAC OTOH is a big company, and like European or American knives are well finished and sharp right out of the box. But MAC doesn't make a comparable series -- so any comparison is "apples and oranges" no matter how you turn it.

If it were me, and I'd decided on Japanese carbon, I'd skip the whole entry-level thing and try a Misono Sweden Series, a Kikuichi Elite or a Masamoto. All of which are to die for. You realize that with carbon, you're going to be wiping down constantly and rinsing frequently -- as in every time the knife touches onion or tomato. There's a new sheriff in town when it comes to carbons, BTW, and that's those green Scotch-Brite scrub pads. They'll take stains right off the knives without doing much scratching.

But I reiterate, if you want to get informed comment: Check at Fred's and the KF.

Also, one wonders if your three Nortons will be up to the task of hard Japanese steel. I take it they're the coarse Crystolon, fine Crystolon, and fine India. If you ask, you'll get nothing but recommendations for water and diamond stones. That doesn't mean the Nortons won't work. My experience with the fine India and Arkansas stones is that they're slow on Japanese steel, but eventually get the job done. At minimum though, you'll want to add something for polishing the edge on your new knife. A black Arkansas if you go Sabatier or a 4000 grit or higher water stone. It's easy to get caught up in the relative glamor of knife details -- but the pedestrian aspect of what's required to get and keep them sharp is where it's really at.

A knife is only a handle and a sharpening problem,
BDL

[CookingAngry]

What sharpening system would you recomend when if I were to look into an upgrade?

What kind of polishing or finishing stones do you like?

Also, what other sharpening steels are good other than that glass one? Is that glass one pretty durable?

As always, thanks for the help.

[jonowee]

The Hiromoto HC (High Carbon) line was discontinued by Hiromoto, for whatever reasons I don't know considering it's such a hit product line.

The Tojiro lineup got pulled from JCK, again for reasons not discussed in detail with Koki; it just odd considering JCK was one of if not the best source of Tojiro cutlery available to those outside Japan.

I guess Fujitora (who owns the Tojiro brand) decided they could make more money doing their own exports to the few overseas distributors instead of selling at local prices to JCK which was more open to the OS market. Through JCK they could move a greater quantity of knives but at less profit to them per item I guess.
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As for the Hiromoto HC replacement on JCK being the Fujiwara FKH series, it's a similar build with SK-4 (simplier Japanese carbon steel) blade. From that it deviates quite a bit, I recently acquired a FKH-2 150mm petty (utility) and FKH-6 240mm gyuto (chef's) to compare to my Hiromoto HC 120mm petty and 270mm gyuto.

First thing I notice is the increased thickness across the spine compared to the HC, while still being thinner than any forged German knife. Thankfully the edge profile tapers down to nice and thinly. It's a little sluggish compared to the agile HC or MAC, it gains points for Fujiwara's substantial handles and the nice taper up around the tip which encourages rocking with being a Shun (German blade profile).

Since they are new knives in my collection, it hasn't being pressed into service at work or at school to assess the results of Fujiwara's heat treatment of SK-4 which affects edge holding and ease of sharpening.
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If you get the chance, give the Kikuichi Carbon Elite a go; since you guys the US have a distributor over there. We in Australia don't have one and Kikuichis making it my way without heavy P&H 'penalties' are hard to come by.
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The Hand American borosillicate glass honing rod is tougher than I expected, I can only describe it to be between Pyrex and polycarbonate (not ballistics grade), since I haven't executed the 'drop test' . It's easily lighter than an equivalent sized steel, and I've read that it's boron impregnated glass which should make it tough as.

I tell you at $55 for a 12" 'Combi' steel or glass honing rod, it incredibly hard to beat value for money.
Hand American being a lower volume producer, there are certain custom options available not listed; for example combi, full grooved or full smooth; and other length options.
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Back on topic, if you could (and even I) a carbon steel 'vintage' Sabatier cutlery (even if it's only 20 years ago) and to be a winner here is for it to be in good condition, some of them look like they dug the knife up from the garden. The a difference between work hardened patina and knife killing rust and broken handles.

Unfortunately the 'golden age' of European cutlery has slipped away, they just don't build them like they used to! Even a fellow chef who has 20 year old Henckels are something that I could get excited about, sadly nowadays European manufacturers are not try hard enough to innovate and actually improve their products. They seem rather comfortable fitting all kinds of handles to the same axe and market it with a barrage of twisted facts, sad but true.

I would sell off almost all my Euro cutlery (except the boning knives) just for one vintage French chef's knife that is in good condition.

[boar_d_laze]

Thanks for filling me in on the Hiromoto HC, Tojiro thing, and for telling me about your Fujiwaras. I look forward to reading how they fare under pressure.

I agree with you about vintage carbon steel knives -- except I have a block full, a mag-bar full, not to mention a few in the drawer (edge-guards, don't worry). I also have two new Thiers-Issard Four Star Elephant Sabatier (or whatever they really call themselves) carbons, and two "new" K-Sabatier "au carbone." (Regarding the K-Sab, I put "new" in "quotes" because they refer to them as "vintage" and I suspect the knives may no longer be currently manufactured and are NOS.)

These two lines seem much of a piece with the older knives. Sharpen the same, hold an edge the same, same quality control out of the box -- handles fit, metal well finished, and spine-edges not rounded off (well who does, really?). Both manufacturers' grind and sharpening might be done by the same guy. The blades are well profiled but the sharpening is spotty. So warm up the stones when you hear the delivery guy coming. Otherwise no problems to report.

I also have three Nogent style knives from Thiers-Issard as sold at The Best of Things. They seem to be slightly slimmer, handle lighter, and are graced with the same F&F strengths and weaknesses as the modern knives. All three of my knives are mid-length. I'm not sure if the lightness is a result of differences in the blade/bolster itself or entirely attributable to the lighter tang.

If I were putting together a new set and knew what I was getting into re carbon, I'd seriously consider building it around the Nogents. Remember though, these knives do dull more quickly than modern Japanese steel. Of course they sharpen more easily and are more chip-resistant. They also respond to the steel better -- until one day they just don't and they SCREAM to be sharpened. Vite, vite. The other carbon lines to which I'd give serious consideration are Kikuichi Elite, Misono Sweden and Hiromoto AS -- stretching the definition of carbon to include the Hiromotos for their Hitachi blue-paper hagane. Hiromoto AS is kind of the best of many worlds, isn't it? Except, you still have to wipe after every onion.

One of the problems with Japanese western style knives is that not all manufacturers make all the useful profiles in every line. It's hard or maybe impossible to find western boning knives, flexible fish fillets and tournes in carbon. I prefer western boning knives because I know how to use them and because I'm left handed, while *sukes seem to be righty only. I'll also never get used to the deba/suji-yana filleting thing for fish. I like flexible utility or slicer shaped filleting knives, thank you very much.

Dream Carbon basic set: Hiromoto AS 270mm Gyuto; Misono Sweden 270 mm Suji (if only for the engraved dragon); Thiers-Issard Sab Canadian Massif 9" Lobster Cracker (aka Chef de Chef); Hiromoto 210mm Gyuto (garlic, shallots, ginger); Nogent 8" flexible slicer (filleting and fish service); Thiers-Issard Sabatier boner; Hiromoto AS 150mm Petty (utility, fanning cuts); K-Sab 3" curved paring (shaping, peeling); Thiers-Issard Sabatier straight bayonet fork; HandAmerica glass combi-steel; a set of four Pro Shaptons; and an unlimited supply of Scotch-Brite green scouring pads and baking soda to care for the carbon steel. How's that sound?

BDL

[jonowee]

Originally Posted by boar_d_laze

the Hiromotos for their Hitachi blue-paper hagane. Hiromoto AS is kind of the best of many worlds, isn't it? Except, you still have to wipe after every onion.

an unlimited supply of Scotch-Brite green scouring pads and baking soda to care for the carbon steel. How's that sound?

BDL

Hiromoto AS left, Hiromoto HC centre and right.

The AS core looks alot blacker than it actually is, it's more smoky grey. The HC has lemon forced patina which turned out 'tiger stripe' due to the air bubbles in the cling wrap I used doing a different process (the usual technique is an acid bath).

I actually don't remove the patina (stains as it's known in other circles) on my non-shiny carbon steel knives (mainly the non single bevel ones). For me patina on knives is like patina on black/cast iron cookware, it protects the pan/knife and improves performance.
Once the patina has work itself on the blade nicely, the reactivity of the blade is reduce significantly. You really don't have to wipe the knife after every onion, I don't even wash and dry my CS knife between uses like I've heard as a main 'complaint' about CS knives, just a quick wipe between each cutting job and I'm safe.

Actually Blue Super is one of the least reactive carbon steels I've come across, I guess mainly due to extra additives in the alloy when compared to the purer White steel. The AS patina is pretty much fixed after it greyed up, it hasn't really changed since.
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I too prefer slicer-utility shaped filleting knives, unfortunately simple 440 stainless steel can't hold the edges I'm looking for and waste too much time trying to get rid of the wire edge. I just use my CS morioshi deba combined with a skinnier CS knife like my 150 petty for trimming processes.

Boning knives do take a lot of abuse running along hard bones, and stainless steel as preferred if not only allowed in the meat processing industry is the major market and manufacturers easily cater for them. CS ones can be pretty lacklustre, for example some reviews of Old Hickory boning knives kinda put CS to shame.
I still keep my European pattern boning knives because that's the only training and techniques I've learning anywhere, and Japanese meat butchery techniques are difficult to find.


BDL, I'll definitely dig up this thread in the future when I'm in the market for a Sabatier. I'll probably pick up a chef's and flexible fillet knife.

[boar_d_laze]

I've had a K-Sab au carbone 10" chef's and 10" slicer for almost forty years. They don't exactly look new, but they don't have a dark patina either. Rather they have a used metal patina. You know what I mean, if you've worked with machinery -- the soft-smooth finish like the drum on an old capstan. I rinse and wipe with a scotch-brite whenever I finish a task, but that's no problem as I do the same with my few stainless kinves, too. I get a little more serious with the scotch-brite and some baking soda after sharpening.

I'd heard the Hiromoto AS' exposed aogami edge was susceptible to pitting unless it was treated with the usual carbon protocol. But you own it, I've only played with and sharpened someone else's. Here's Hitachi's explanation of what's in and not in, their various paper wrapped steels:
http://www.paragoncode.com/temp/YSS_HCC_spec.pdf FWIW, the "W" is tungsten and the P is phosphorous. I'll bet your right about the additions to the alloy compared to the shirogamis giving it some rust resistance.

BDL

[buzzard767]

Originally Posted by CookingAngry

So I am in the market for an upper grade chef's knife/knife set. The whole Sabatier K brand thing had me going till I heard a few people saying that they aren't like the old ones.

Does anybody have anything to say about this new brand?

Would anybody like to further explain this whole Sabatier mystery to me?

Also, what should I be looking for as far as hardness ratings?

Also, also, what other sites are informative, I am an info junkie so I like to research research research?

Vintage Sabatier 9" Nogent Chef's Knife NEW - eBay (item 270226484747 end time Apr-13-08 13:32:51 PDT)

Buzz

[boar_d_laze]

Originally Posted by CookingAngry

What sharpening system would you recomend when if I were to look into an upgrade?

If you really care about consistent angles -- EdgePro. Personally, I don't care for rod-guided systems, but that's irrational on my part.

If you know how to freehand, are not planning on buying hard Japanese steel, and have the patience for Arkansas stones -- an 8" Norton combination India stone (IB-8), an 8" Hall's soft Arkansas, and an 8" Hall's surgical black Arkansas. That's my set. If you have the room, get 11" stones. I really like that these stones don't require anywhere near the maintenance of waterstones. BTW, I use these stones dry or with a light spritz of water.

If you know how to freehand, want something significantly more efficient, and can afford the prices -- Shapton glass ceramic waterstones. If I were buying a set of stones tomorrow, I'd buy 4 Shaptons instead of the India/Arkansas set.

Other good waterstones, like Nortons.

If you know how to freehand, want to go real fast, don't mind spending bucks, and don't need too much polish -- 2 DMT 8" 2-sided diamond stones (X-Coarse + Coarse, and Fine + X-Fine). More than adequate, fast as can be, and no maintenance.

HandAmerica sandpaper on glass system + strop. This may actually be the best way to go. I'm semi-familiar with DIY "scary sharp" systems. You can get stuff really sharp, but it's always been kind of uncomfortable, ad hoc, and ill-fitting. HandAmerica seems to have come up with a bunch of stuff that fits together. Worth researching.

Most people think of systems as three surfaces: Coarse, medium and fine. I think a good system uses four: Repair and profile; profile and sharpen; sharpen and polish; and, polish.

What kind of polishing or finishing stones do you like?

Surgical black Arkansas; translucent Arkansas; good quality waterstone in the 6,000 to 8,000 range (8,000 is probably overkill for kitchen knives); fine grit sandpaper.

Also, what other sharpening steels are good other than that glass one? Is that glass one pretty durable?

I like combination smooth and extra fine steels, best. But most steels are good ones as long as they're "fine" or smoother.

The best steel is probably an F. Dick Dickoron combi, but it's expensive; HandAmerica makes a steel steel, as well as the glass steel -- they're the best no BS steels, the glass is better but you've got to be careful with it -- I just got one not long ago and think it's great; Forschner makes some good, inexpensive steels but they've got ugly Fibrox handles, the Rosewood steel is too coarse; The Henckels Pro S extra-fine is, or at least was, very good as well -- I'm not sure if they're still made or imported. I've had one forever. Whatever you buy, don't forget you have to wash it once in awhile.

As always, thanks for the help.

You're very welcome. And sorry it took so long for me to respond. I got sidetracked.

BDL

[jonowee]

I'd gone back through the thread to read the earlier posts that I've missed out.

"Commercial" lines of cutlery (to me) are more for in-house stock pile of tools in food processing, large establishments or just backups, for them to get stuffed in dishwashers, dropped, used as can openers and create knife fireworks with 'pro' sharpening services; rather than for someone who has and maintains their own set of knives.
I'm not saying they are terrible or even off par, but as your personal tools it's worth it to invest more. I personally like certain stamped items from Victorinox and F Dick, would I spend AUD$300 on a forged Wusthof axe?... no! when I can get better performance from a AUD$80 stamped Victorinox.

Your personal tools being ones that you maintain to the highest standards, should be the best you can maintain or afford (no relation between two to indicate quality or performance).
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All this talk about HRC values, let's be aware that hardness ratings isn't everything. For example a powdered (stainless) steel and carbon steel knife under good heat treatments at a highish 63 HRC, with the same blade geometry will perform and be maintained differently.

I personally find it easier to maintain the edge during use and sharpening of a high 63 HRC carbon steel knife over a 55 HRC stainless knife. During sharpening I waste far too much time fighting the wire edge on stainless knives, while carbon steel will let me cut the bevels in quick and easily.

For more detailed reading in your own time...
Kitchen Knife Terms / Def - Knifeforums.com - Intelligent Discussion for the Knife Enthusiast - Powered by FusionBB
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IMO diamond plates are not for sharpening the final edges, they are good for repairs, setting profiles and bevels but leave more to be desired when finishing cutting edges.

But the coarse stuff available is pretty sweet for flattening sharpening stones. Flattening of stones is something no one I've ever met personally do or even heard of considering how important it is.
Seriously it's a good habit to get into, no one wants their stone to look like a bowl plate, and you can forget everything about angles when you see dished out stones.
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As for selection of knives patterns to have to tackle kitchen duties, there are lots of opinions mostly personal preferances. There was recent topic on KFourms about a set limited to 4 knives, many varied ideas and options came up.

I came up with: a 10" chinese slicer-type cleaver to cover almost everything from veg to meat, 3" paring for hand peeling, turning, tiny tasks and boning meat, 8" garasuki to cover heavier breakdown of meat, fish and vegetables and a 12" wavy edge slicer (like a MAC SB-105 or Wusthof Super-Slicer) to cover bread, pastry, medium duty slicing/carving (like roasts).
However that list may make training you the usual European technique difficult.

I personally work with a gyuto, parer and maybe a petty to cover most duties. I like the 270mm Hiromoto but I only have one cutting board at home, one at work and a select few at school where this sizable sword can work comfortably on. Even as an 8" chef's knife of a guy, most standard 210mm gyutos usually don't have enough belly to be super so 240mm seems to be the magic number for me.
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Good luck CookingAngry on your journey to culinary glory and making it to Paris, you've got big dreams and don't stop working at it.

I'm too conservative to aim directly for the top kitchen, I feel the need to learn more from many other kitchens before even attempting a commis position at the high end establishments.
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[CookingAngry]

Thanks for the encouragement. BIG dreams and normally I'm more reserved. (note to self: don't message board when drunk or pulling an all nighter)

I have done enough commercial prep that I'm not worried about being prepb!^ch at a nicer place. Plus I'm in the midwest where not a lot of crazy stuff gets done.

[jonowee]

That's cool... do enjoy your Sabatier K Au Carbone.


I wanted to get a Sabatier awhile back, but when doing a bit of google research popped up Sab K, Sab Lion, Sab 2 Lions, Sab Four Star Elephant, Sab Mexuer?...

BDL... two fairly different knife lines but the 4 Star Elephant carbon steel knives' the Nogents and the French patterns with scale style handles, how do they compare?
The Nogents seem attractive because of the rat tail tang that will make the knife more blade heavy which I prefer, just interested to compare the build of the blade mainly thickness and how it tapers to the edge.

[boar_d_laze]

I've got a couple of the Elephant carbons -- a boner and a paring with a German style bolster that was a prototype for a line that never got made. Amazon sent it to me as a way of apologizing for delaying shipment on some other knives. Anyway, they're very good knives. Compared to the several K-Sab au carbones I have -- I'd say better F&F, blade quality about the same. The boner especially -- sharpens easily and holds an edge very well. You know how much work they get on the tip, too.

I've got three of the Nogent handle Elephants. A utility/slicer, a flexible fillet and a 7" chef's. I really, really like them. Light, and basically very easy to sharpen. Excellent balance in the mid-sizes. If you like blade-forward you should be happy. The handle is incredibly comfortable. So basic, and so right. F&F good, but not great. You'll have to ease some edges and you'll want to profile the edge to a more acute angle.

Let me tell you what I mean by "basically" very easy to sharpen. I don't know how it happened, but somehow the utility/slicer got dull to the point where it needed re-profiling. I profiled it to a 15 deg simple bevel when I first got it, and didn't abuse it ... but, well who knows? Anyway, I couldn't get an edge on it with the soft Arkansas at all. If started with the fine India the best I could do was not very good. Then when I sharpened and polished on progressively finer stones the knife seemed to get duller?! WTF?! Somehow the bevels had become quite uneven, with one side convex and the other slightly hollow with the wire tucked into it, and you couldn't get if off noway nohow. Or something.

I took some time and re-profiled it with the coarse India, making sure the new bevels were very flat and even, took it all the way up to the surgical black, using some stropping back strokes along the way to make sure there were no hollows, and all became well. They don't call it a surgical black for nothing.

The point being not that I don't know as much about sharpening as I think I do, but a fine India was not fast enough to profile the knife, at least not with "touch up" effort. So, whatever it's HRC is, it's probably more than claimed.

Anyway ... great knives. You'll even dig the little, flat French bolster and the way your fingers slide up against it when you pinch grip. Given that you already have a fairly complete collection of Japanese shapes you might want to think about one of the flexible fillets as well as a French pattern Chef's.

I don't know what to say about my K-Sab chef's. I've had the same knife for almost forty years. But I stopped using it in the late seventies, switching to a stainless Henckels when I stopped cooking for money and didn't want the bother. I didn't rediscover it until twenty years later. And then, all I could do was ask myself, "What was I thinking when I switched?"

I don't know if it's perfect, flawed or somewhere in between. It's a part of me in the way no other knife or tool ever has been. Hard to imagine using anything else.

BDL

BDL

[MikeLM]

BDL-

This has been a fascinating thread, and your insights on both knives and sharpening are greatly appreciated.

If you aren't aware of the company, I would like to suggest

Lee Valley Tools - Woodworking Tools, Gardening Tools, Hardware

It is a Canada-based company that designs, produces, and sells highly-imaginative and well-made woodworking tools, and also an increasing line of cooking tools, as well as gardening stuff. I am pretty sure they were the first to point out the kitchen versatility of the Microplane wood rasp- twelve or more years ago. I ordered one and was so impressed I got one for each of our three kids.

Anyway, they have a complete line of sharpening equipment ranging from the Tormak sharpening system (which you don't need in the kitchen) to the microgrit sheets for the Scary Sharp method, the full DMT line including their diamond "steel", a full line of waterstones, and a knife-angle sharpening clamp for use on stones.

The founder, Leonard Lee, wrote the seminal textbook "Sharpening" which mostly deals with woodworking tools, but includes a chapter on kitchen-tools sharpening.

You might want to sign up for their catalog mailing. I think you'ld enjoy their stuff.

Mike

[buzzard767]

Speaking of Lee Valley and Sabs, look here. If that's not a Sab Nogent I'll eat my shirt. I'm holding one in my hand comparing it with the picture.

Buzz