[CookingAngry]

So I am in the market for an upper grade chef's knife/knife set. The whole Sabatier K brand thing had me going till I heard a few people saying that they aren't like the old ones.

Does anybody have anything to say about this new brand?

Would anybody like to further explain this whole Sabatier mystery to me?

Also, what should I be looking for as far as hardness ratings?

Also, also, what other sites are informative, I am an info junkie so I like to research research research?

[boar_d_laze]

The best site for knife information is probably the knife forum:
Knifeforums.com homepage
Go figure.

For kitchen knives with a Japanese flair, you want to look at Fred's Cutlery Forum on the Foodie Forum:
Fred's Cutlery Forum - Foodie Forums

Sabatier K is not a new brand, but is one of the oldest Sabatiers. It is also one of the best. I highly recommend their au carbone vintage knives, and their antique Canadian knives. Their stainless knives are as highly regarded as any similarly priced European line. I assume you have their website.

As good as Sabatier K is (Four Star) Elephant (Thiers-Issard) Sabatier. I recommend all of their knives, especially the "Nogent" carbons and the modern carbons. Their French and German profile stainless is of similar quality to Wusthof Classic (as are the up-market K Sabs). The blade profiles are very similar with the exception of German and French chef's. German chef's knives have deeper, more rounded bellies, and a more streamlined bolster. French knives are narrower, straighter, have thinner blades, are lighter and more agile. German knives promote a rocking push-cut action, French a slight slice. Most cooks who have used both prefer the French.

Anyway, here's a link to Elephant's US distributor and largest retailer: Sabatier Kitchen Knives at The Best Things

At this moment, the primary use knives in my knife block are a K Sabatier au carbone 10" chef's, K Sabatier au carbone 10" slicer, Henckels Pro (stainless) bread knife, Nogent carbon 7" chef's, Nogent carbon 7" slicer, Nogent carbon 8" fillet, Elephant carbon paring knife, and an Elephant carbon boning knife. The next group include a K Sab 12" chef de chef's, an Elephant carbon sheeps foot, and a Nogent carbon tourne. You get the picture.

If you can put up with the continual wiping that comes with carbon, it's a very viable and affordable option. Compared to the best European stainless, it takes an edge much easier and holds it longer. Compared to high end Japanese steel -- well, better performance is to be had from Japan. If I were replacing my knives, I might choose carbon steel Sabatiers for a lot of reasons -- most of which are emotional, but I'd probably go Japanese out of practicality. If I were still cooking profesionally, I'd definitely go all Japanese.

The subject of Japanese knives is extremely deep. I'm happy to make recommendations that go beyond the usual Global and Shun, but need to know more about your price range, types of knives desired, how and how often you sharpen, how much money you're willing to put into sharpening tools, and what sort of use you'll be putting your knives to before going much farther.

Let me know,
BDL

[Mannlicher]

K Sabatier has a nice little outlet store in Yemassee, South Carolina. (on I-95)
A phone call will get you their catalog, and price lists. Exellent prices, by the way.
I stop by there every time I drive North, and pick up something I just have to have.
I am partial to the Carbon Steel knives

800-525-6399

[RSteve]

Originally Posted by CookingAngry

I am an info junkie so I like to research research research?

You may be interested in looking through this site: JapaneseKnife.com I've purchased a few knives from this site, direct from Japan. It was a gamble, at first, because I hadn't heard of some of the makers and the prices were very reasonable. I've been extremely satisfied.

[boar_d_laze]

Here are some additional links for Japanese manufactured knives.

Cutlery and More has a wide selection of knives and all kinds of cooking stuff. I've used them several times and have found them fast and honest. They made a mistake on one of my orders, plus were messed up by Pay Pal, they not only corrected their error without any BS, they took care of Pay Pal's by shipping my order on trust. At any rate, I've included them here for their selection of MAC -- the working chef's choice. No BS, no legend of Samurai. Light, sharp, well finished knives at a fair price -- value throughout all four of their lines. They also sell Shuns. I'm not a fan of Shun, personally. Partly because I'm left handed and don't believe someone else's kitchen knife should be dangerous to me, or vice versa; and partly because I feel a lot of money goes into cosmetics. Still, a lot of people really like them.

Mac Knives - Your Mac Knife Store, Full Mac Knife Selection, MAC Japanese Knives, chef knife

The next three,are the nucleus of e-tailers for U.S. fans of Japanese kitchen cutlery.

The Epicurean Edge: Japanese and European professional chefs knives

Products Japanese Knife,Japanese Kitchen Knife,Japanese Chef's Knives.Com

Korin - Fine Japanese Tableware and Chef Knives

The link RSteve posted is for an e-tailer who belongs in this group, too. At one time it was associated with Japanese Chef Knife.com, but I'm not sure if there's still a relationship. Fred of Fred's Cutlery Forum would know. If you care.

I've been thinking about what I wrote to you, and I'm not so sure that I'd switch to Japanese knives over French carbons. My knives handle so well, and suit me to a "T." What can I say?

If I were shopping now, I'd only consider certain Japanese blade profiles, anyway. Gyuto, Sujihiki and Petty. Gyuto is a French (as opposed to German) profile Chef's knife as far as the edge and belly go -- but the Japanese like to drop their point a little more, and a little later along the spine. Japanese forged gyuto are substantially thinner and lighter than German knives -- but not much more than French carbons. Japanese stamped gyuto are lighter still.

Speaking of stamped vs forged -- get over your old fashioned prejudices if you still have them. Good stamped are every bit as good as good forged these days.

Sujihikis are very similar to French slicers -- which are very similar to German slicers. The principal difference between French and German profiles is not the blade itself, but the bolster. Japanese knives are made without bolsters. Although most better Wester styled Japanese knives have a half-bolster styled ferrule sintered to the blade, and a naked heel. Several German manufacturers are copying the pattern by the way, by grinding down the lower part of their bolsters. E.g., Wustohof Ikon and Le Cordon Bleu. Anyway, the suji is a familiar pattern very useful for Western cooking.

Pettys (petties?) are just spear-point paring knives along very similar lines to a European slicer or "utility."

I don't like Japanese boning knives -- of which there are several shapes and sizes. I also don't care for their principal fish filleting knife, the deba, either. These knives are balanced, profiled and styled very differently than western knives designed for the same purposed. Japanese pattern boning knives like honesuke and garasuke have a very wide profile, and a dropped point, as opposed to the long narrow profile and up-rounded point of a European pattern. The western deba is part of a two knife system for filleting, skinning and slicing fish. The deba is a heavy, stiff, and wide knife shaped a lot like a French chef's, but deeper, and is used for the filleting and cutting through the spine to take the head. They use a suji for skining and slicing. Frankly I prefer the Euro style alternatives. Maybe it's just what I'm used to.

And when it comes to real specialty knives that don't get used very often -- they're hard to find from Japanese manufacturers, and when you can they're too expensive. I figure that's why God invented F. Dick and Forschner.

You'd asked about steel hardness, and I didn't answer. Anything under 55 HRC (Rockwell scale) is too soft for a modern knife. Anything over 60 is extremely hard -- which may be good or bad depending on the steel's resistance to chipping and your ability to sharpen a knife that hard. Because hard or not, they get dull. For a well designed knife, figure each 2 point HRC nets you about 25% more time between sharpenings. If your knives are over 58 HRC, you're pretty much committed to water (ceramic) or diamond stones. Everything else takes too long.

The good, old, carbon Sabs act a little harder than my newer Elephant carbons which are rated at 55-56 HRC. However, knives can be very idiosyncratic. The blade on my 7" Nogent slicer is at least 70 years old, but it absolutely kicks my @$$ on the stones. My other Nogents, sourced at more or less the same time from the same supplier sharpen very easily.

When I was working the line in the early seventies, I sharpened my K Sab carbon chef's (still got it!) every work week. If I were using a really good Japanese knife, that would be about every 2-1/2 weeks. By the way, a carbon Sab will easily take and hold a very Japanese "V" single bevel of ~15 deg. It may possibly require a little more steeling between edges, but that's hard to say because I steel more often than required. In fact, every time I take a knife out of the block to compensate for my wife's never touching the steel.

If I were choosing a new chef's, I'd choose between the Hiromoto AS, and the Ryusen Blazen as the best, no BS, every penny goes to making the knife better, knives. Actually, I'd go Hirmomoto, but you might not like the fact that the composite, stainless-carbon blade uses carbon steel for the edge.

FWIW, If I were buying new stones, I'd go Shapton Pro, plus a Hand American borosilicate-glass "steel." Seriously man, when you think about this, don't forget to seriously consider what you're going to do about sharpening. A good set of stones with four surfaces is at least as expensive as a good knife.

BDL

[CookingAngry]

BDL:

Your posts are extremely helpful. I already have the norton three stone system for sharpening. I probably need to educate myself on the various options I have with stones.

Are my OIL norton stones not acceptable for harder steel?

One of the other reasons I was interested in Sabatier is that there is a set with a knife roll at cutlery and more for only 150. I am too young on the forum to post the link.

This seemed reasonable to me considering the steel is a diamond steel but I am unsure of the brand, Grand Chef, any thoughts?

I am presently persuing an "in" for a job at one of the nicer restaurants in Ann Arbor and if it's a "use your own knives" place, I will need a set soon.

My previous work has been at a Pizza Tavern doing lots of prep and not really cooking anything more than pizza, soup, and a lot of chicken. So I am excited about moving to a nicer kitchen.

I have plans set in motion for a three year apprenticship following my graduating from college next year so this is all in reference to professional cooking.

That leads me to think maybe I should be looking at the more commercial lines like Forschner or even Kershaw Commercial (although I am not a fan of the Shun line either.)

My question seems confused now but any imput is appreciated.

[boar_d_laze]

Your question makes a lot of sense, actually. Also, now that I have some idea of what knives you need, your price range, etc., I know exactly where to point you. Well, maybe I'm not that smart, but we can have an intelligent discussion.

The set you're looking at is a 10" Chef's, boning knife, spear-point parer, and "fine" steel with a non-matching plastic handle, in a roll. It's not K - Sabatier, although the logo is a little confusing if you don't know what you're looking at. It's 2 Lion Sabatier's discontinued German profile line, "Grand Chef." Compared to less expensive knives, they've got forged blades and full bolsters, but what do those contribute to performance? In the greater scheme of things, it's hard to say if Grand Chef is better than Forschner or F. Dick. Or, just a little more expensive.

Forschner Fibrox and Rosewood knives are good for students or first jobs. As to your heaviest use knives, like your Chef's, you'll grow out of them quickly. For occasional use knives, they're great. You'll keep the garde manger knives forever. They're comfortable, affordable, and easy to sharpen, but they dull quickly. FWIW, F. Dick Euro-Cut is just as good.

If you can afford the price difference you can buy much better performance with MAC. Lighter, more agile, stay sharper much longer. Not to mention their chef's knives are French profile -- which is a big improvement. MAC is probably the best performance for price brand for the professional cook.

If you're going Sabatier, which is not a bad thing, the two best brands to pursue are K Sabatier and Four Star Elephant Thiers Issard (boy that's a mouthful!). I gave you a link to The Best of Things already, they distribute the Elephant lines. Here's a link to K Sabatier: Kitchen Sabatier Knives: French cutlery from Thiers. The other good Sabatier brands in the U.S., are 2 Lion Sabatier, V Sabatier and Mercier et Cie.

BDL

[CookingAngry]

BDL-

Great advice, thanks for being so helpful.

What about sharpening, should I stick with my norton or look elsewhere?

Also, what steels are appropriate and where can I find them?

[boar_d_laze]

Steel is easy, scroll down for HandAmerican: Japanese Knife Sharpening

Sharpening systems are another matter. I use four stone surfaces -- two of them Norton, so you know I like them. You could add a fine, black or translucent Arkansas bench stone from Hall's as a finishing stone if you like using the tri-hone. My four surfaces are the coarse and fine India on an IB-8, a Hall's soft Arkansas, and a Halls surgical-black Arkansas. I sharpen with the surfaces dry, and my Sabs get mighty sharp.

If you're going with a harder steel, I'd bite the bullet and buy two double-sided DMTs (x-coarse, coarse, fine, x-fine), and a holder. Or, 4 Shapton ceramic water stones, a holder and a less expensive than Shapton leveling stone.

I'd also investigate the HandAmerican system which, I think, is a refined version of "Scary Sharp." If so, it mostly uses sandpapers for an easy and inexpensive way to get very sharp. The trick is finding sandpapers in the right widths, lengths and grits. You'd have to email Japanese Knife Sharpening or HandAmerican.

The ProEdge is the best of the rod guided systems, I guess if you're fanatic about getting the angles right.

BDL

[CookingAngry]

I like those MACs pretty well from what I'm reading but I have this weird lean toward French made at the moment. That could change, all I'm saying is that if I spend close to 100 dollars or more on a single knife I will probably go French Carbon.

The Norgent line from Elephant looks real interesting. I like the lack of vanity that comes with a carbon knife.

Do you know the hardness of the Norgent carbons, do the same standards apply with carbon steel?

[boar_d_laze]

I'm not sure if anyone's accurately measured the Rockwell hardness of Elephant's Nogent line. I have a few, and they act very slightly harder than modern Elephant carbon and vintage K au carbone -- and of both lines, I have several. All my knives have been re-profiled to 15 deg single bevels, then 15/20 double bevels, then back to 15 deg single, so my acquaintance with their hardness is intimate.

I'd put the Nogents at 55-58 HRC, slightly harder than modern or "vintage." But that's, "By guess and by God," as the saying goes. As far as I know Thiers-Issard never had the knives actually tested in a meaningful way. I've seen guesses from people who've done their own testing, but don't trust HRC numbers from a press-test -- basically some nerd tightening a clamp with a pressure gauge, guessing when the clamp is just about to leave a mark because if he leaves a mark he can't return the knife for a refund. The results are too variable.

This is a little complicated by the possibility that not all the blanks which Thiers Issard is selling as "Nogent" come from the same companies, or that the steel comes from the same smelters or ores. I say "possibility" because Thiers Issard's story is that the blanks came from other local companies that went out of business during the thirties (See, The Best of Things website). Maybe. Given the timing it's more likely that Thiers Issard hid the blanks to keep it from confiscation by the French government which wanted steel for the pre WW II mobilization, kept it hidden during the German occupation to keep it from les Boche, had to keep it hidden after the war because it was too hard to explain why they were hoarding knives when, mon Dieu, the French government was desperate to stop the Hun. Styles changed to full tang during the early fifties, and Thiers Issard just forgot about them. In which case the knives all did come from the same manufacturer, forger, smelter and ore -- which at the time was either Sheffield or Solingen. No matter how they were acquired and lost, finally (and this part is true for sure), when Thiers Issard was emptying out an old warehouse to build a new office building, crates of the NOS knives were discovered where they'd "accidentally" become hidden behind walls of other crates.

So there's the whiff of romance to them. And anyway ... Yes, they're great knives. Wonderful knives. They may not hold an edge quite as long as some of the modern Japanese knives, but they sharpen up almost as well. Certainly, you get them sharp enough to cut micro-brunois -- and what more do you need?

They sharpen very easily. Although in the interest of full disclosure, my small slicer absolutely kicks my @ss. One aspect of carbon that you don't hear much about is how resilient it is. Carbon edges tend to bend and wave, rather than dull or nick, and consequently are easily restored by steeling. In this way, a carbon edge tends to outlast a stainless edge of equal hardness. A feature of French carbon knives, especially older styles like the Nogent, is they're forged thin and light. Along with the blade profile this makes them as agile as modern Japanese knives. Also, the Nogent ebony, square cross-section handles are incredibly comfortable for any size hand and any length of time for a pinch or slicing grip.

Anyway, what can you say? The knives used by Escoffier, Pelliprat, and Julia Childs aren't good enough? Pfui!

Of course, carbon means a lot wiping and drying. I cooked for money a long time ago, and switching to stainless for ease of maintenance was a big deal. What wasn't so obvious at the time was how often you had to sharpen, how subject to dings and nicks the stainless steel was, and how much more effort it took to use a heavy German knife for hours than it did a light French. For one thing, heft feels good for the first few minutes. For another, they were so shiny.

I grew out of that eventually. And it seems like you're already too mature to fall into that trap.

The one thing I'd miss is the visual reinforcement I get from the tang and rivets on a full-tang chef's knife and long slicer. First to third rivet is batonette and julienne length; the rivet's diameter is fine dice and batonette width, and a thin slice; the tang's width is julienne and batonette width. You may not need it, but I find it helpful. A full-tang big knife is typically more neutrally balanced than a rat-tail tang. But, I don't own any big Nogents, you'd have to email The Best of Things and ask.

As it happens, that's what I use. Full tang on the big boys, and rat-tails on the mid-size. I don't mention my knives to endorse my reasoning, but to let you know of the possibility of bias. People fall in irrational love with their choices, I'm sure I'm no exception.

You have good questions,
BDL

[CookingAngry]

Fantastic information.

If it's good enough for Escoffier? What a line.

I assume I'll probably go this route with a combination of the two companies. Maybe just Sabatier K stanless to start with then trying very soon to get some carbon going on.

You're working on a cookbook? Thats ba. If you don't mind the question... where and what did you cook professionally?

[boar_d_laze]

In the seventies, I cooked at The Blue Fox in San Francisco, and Chez Panisse in Berkeley. I had a small catering company in the Bay Area, then later in Los Angeles, called "Predominantly French."

By the late seventies, I'd found a more efficient way to make a living, and when my first kid was born in 1980, I no longer had the time to invest in keeping a hobby/business -- which is what Predominant French had become -- going. So I hung up the jacket.

My "professional" style, such as it was, was always eclectic -- which you'd expect from anyone who cooked at Chez Panisse. But always with classic technique behind it -- ditto. In addition to all the French and California Cuisine stuff, there was a solid helping of barbecue, too. Not to mention detours into Spanish, Med, and Indian. Lately I've added some Asian and Mexican stuff.

I'd describe my approach now as very American. When push comes to shove, it probably always was. I think of my strongest culinary influences as Pelliprat (I learned to cook from his book), James Beard (who taught me to keep an open mind), Alice Waters (who owned Chez Panisse), and Willie Walker (he owned a barbecue in Emeryville, and talked me into cooking for money).

BDL

[CookingAngry]

That's cool.

I wanted to go back to what I said about getting the stainless K Sab. That was me not thinking and mistyping, I definately want the carbon, its comparably priced.

I do want a Forschner or the like first to get my sharpening skills down first though.

[boar_d_laze]

I don't want to belabor the equipment, because truly the hand that holds and the mind which directs it are far more important.

BUT

The basic Forschner, F. Dicks, Wusthofs, etc., are good knives. We all tend to say, "Forschner" because they did so well in the Cook's Illustrated comparisons, but truly the commercial German (and Swiss) knives are pretty much the same.

Let me tell you what you're getting: Because the knife is stamped, and parsimoniously designed, it will be reasonably light. Which is good. It will also be a reasonably thin blade -- which means that when you sharpen it you can tighten the angle a little. Presumably you've been taught to find your angle by halving 90, then halving 45. Well, shave a little off 22.5, because you're going for between 15 and 20, the closer to 15* the better. At least that's modern theory.

Unfortunately, because the metal is somewhat soft, the edge will roll and dull. Rolling can be dealt with by frequent steeling -- which is a good idea. I can't overemphasize the importance of steeling.

The knife will need fairly frequent sharpening, which in the greater scheme of things isn't so bad, because you'll learn how to sharpen. Don't baby this knife, or worry about losing it or haven't it stolen either, you'll grow out of the chef's knife within a year, or two at most. Some of the other shapes in the series, the special meat shapes and the flexible fillets in particular, you can't really better. They're keepers.

Of all of these, I like the Forschner Rosewood line the most, because the handle is more comfortable. The Fibrox is for people who are up to their arms in raw meat all day, like butchers, have to wear ill-fitting plastic gloves during prep, or must clean their knives in a dishwasher . One hopes you don't fit in those classifications.

You'r BA may come back to serve you yet.

Enjoy,
BDL