[buzzard767]

Originally Posted by jester king

to tell you the truth BLD its really the only type of knife i've had, recently i've played with my mom's chef's knife and i like it much better accually, also i see people using these all the time, is it as good as stones?

Calphalon Knives Katana 10-in. Diamond Sharpening Steel - Calphalon Knives Sharpening Steels

No, it is not.

[boar_d_laze]

Originally Posted by jester king

to tell you the truth BLD its really the only type of knife i've had, recently i've played with my mom's chef's knife and i like it much better accually, also i see people using these all the time, is it as good as stones?

Calphalon Knives Katana 10-in. Diamond Sharpening Steel - Calphalon Knives Sharpening Steels

No it's not. Buzz is still right. The right steel is a very important part of knife maintenance. Steels are best for keeping knives in good shape and for extending the life of a good edge. The small round shape isn't as good for putting the edge on a long, straight knife as a stone; it's difficult to control pressures, and steels which are coarse enough to sharpen, tend to be too sharp for knife longevity.

A steel which steels and sharpens is a short cut tool that's not really good at either task.

As I said, the appeal of santokus mystifies me. I think a 9" to 10" chef's knife is more productive for almost every purpose except where limited by the chef's size, knife skills or some limitation preventing a pinch grip.

Speaking of knife skills, I somehow got the impression that you're a beginning pro. If you're not we might want to consider how much effort it's worthwhile for you to put into learning sharpening and knife skills. There are easier ways to sharpen than on a free hand stone, and there are easier knives to learn than a 10" chef's. A "V" system like the Spyderco for instance.

One thing that doesn't change though is: Don't bother thinking about a good knife unless and until you have good ways of sharpening and maintaining it. Otherwise, you'll just be throwing your money away.

BDL

[jester king]

no m8 i'm by no means a beginning pro lol, i'm 17 and cook at home alot, and am frustrated with the lack of decent cookware around here, so i'm invensting in a great knife

[buzzard767]

Originally Posted by jester king

no m8 i'm by no means a beginning pro lol, i'm 17 and cook at home alot, and am frustrated with the lack of decent cookware around here, so i'm invensting in a great knife

17? Get a Tojiro 210 or 240 DP Gyuto from Korin.com. That knife will suffice for more than 90% of your cooking needs. Get a King combo 1000/6000 stone to keep it sharp here. Yeah, I know it costs the same as the knife but you need it. There is no other way and it will be a fantastic learning experience for you.

[jester king]

ya m8, only 17, figure i'd get myself a nice knife to learn on

[boar_d_laze]

... a nice knife to learn on.

Why a Chef's instead of Santoku?

Santokus are very popular. In the knife world, they are "the hot thing" and have made serious inroads into the sales of short (8" chef's knives.). Their popularity, for whatever reason, is mostly among women. Compared to a chef's, a santoku is an easier knife to learn than a Chef's knife. It's smaller and easier to point. It has less point, and feels a little safer. The back of the knife is tall, and the handle is high enough of the board so that the cook doesn't whack knuckles on the board while chopping. Almost the entire knife is one width. Because "it is what it is," there's no "right" or "wrong" sections for a task. The wide body makes it easy to hold slice width, even if the blade is a little short for much of a slice stroke.

There's a right way to hold a chef's knife that resolves most of the differences between it and a santoku in the chef's favor. That's called the "pinch grip." The cook pinches the blade between his or her thumb and forefinger just past the knife's handle -- or bolster if the knife has one; preferably at or near the balance point. The top pad of the forefinger, between the palm and the first knuckle, lies on the top of the knife (the "spine"), with very light pressure.

Learning to use the pinch grip is an unnatural act and takes months of home cooking to get used to, before becoming unconscious. It's something the cook has to think about and consciously adapt during the learning period. In short, a PITA, but it's well worth it.

The thumb and forefinger control the knife's direction and keep it from twisting, the back three fingers keep the knife from falling out of the grip. The pinch grip doesn't require much pressure or effort and is less fatiguing than the alternatives. Pinching not only moves the biggest knuckles to the side of the knife, it rotates the hand in such a way that the knuckles are completely protected. For people with large hands, i.e., men, that's enough reason. But there's a lot more.

By moving the grip so far up the knife, the top of the knife is effectively shortened by a couple of inches -- making the knife a lot easier to point and control. By pinching the knife between thumb and finger, the same way you would any precision hand tool, the cook gets much better aim and control. By pinching the knife between thumb and finger, the wrist naturally stays in line with the forearm, pointing the knife becomes completely intuitive -- the point naturally follows the cook's eyes without a lot of "aiming." The grip resolves the control and knuckle issues.

It has one drawback and that's the pressure of the spine against the forefinger. Some, in fact most, knife spines are very squared-off with flat tops and very shart angles going to each face. When the knife is used the spine presses into the finger and can get very uncomfortable. Professional cooks eventually develop knife calluses, but still suffer pain and/or numbness (I don't know which is worse). Fortunately, there's an easy solution. Just round the top and ease the angles a bit. It can easily be done with a sharpening stone, some sandpaper or a dremel -- and most sharpening services know how to do it, too. It's what everyone should do with a first knife -- but few know enough to do it. When I learned this trick several years ago, it changed my life quite a bit for the better.

The advantages of the grip are so great, that it should be used by any knife -- whether chef's, utility, or santoku -- regardless of hand size.

The triangular shape of the chef's knife gives you three working areas. The point, the front part of the edge, and the back part of the edge. The front and back parts are different from one another in the amount of steel above them.

The narrower front can be twisted as the knife slices to easily control the angle during a slice. The wider back will hold an established slice, once started. The difference is like the difference between jig and circular saws. The extra length of a chef's knife makes a positive difference when slicing. A longer stroke cuts smoother and straighter, then does sawing back and forth. The wider back has more weight behind it and chops more efficiently -- especially through tough roots like carrots. Front of the knife for slicing, back for chopping, middle does it all. That's not too hard to remember is it?

The curve up to the point leaves some metal on the boars while the cook "rocks" the back of the blade up to clear it from the board. The technique doesn't have a formal name but is sometimes called rocking, rock chopping, or point down, or point on the board. It's very important, and used all the time. It can be done with a knife that doesn't have much rise to the point, like a santoku or a Chinese vegetable chopper. And depending on the skill of the chef, it can be done just as well; but it cannot be done just as easily.

So, a chef's knife is better for everything pretty much. A bigger chef's knife is better than a smaller because it can do more work at any one time -- chopping through three carrots side by side, rather than two for instance; slices better, and has more sharp length to use up -- so it doesn't need to be sharpened as often. Weird, but true dat. On the other hand, longer is harder to control and needs a bigger board. One thing about length. As a general rule, a cook should use the largest, comfortable knife. For most this is in the 8" to 10+" range. Most pros, male or female, stay at the long end of the range.

The 8" is less expensive, easier to control, and included in darn near every "set." The fact that it's the generic set's knife should alert you to the fact that it's a "housewives'" knife. In other words, more easy than versatile, and less demanding of technique. If your board is big enough a 9" or 10" is worth the expense. Let the pinch grip take care of the control issues.

[jester king]

ya m8 you seem to know your stuff when it comes to knives, i think i've decided on the calphalon 8" chef's knife, and a set of stones mentioned here, also can i get a reason why that steel i showed isnt as good as stones?

[boar_d_laze]

Buzz picked one of the very best choices in your price range for a knife. The King combo is an okay stone.

Tojiro DP (Buzz's choice): Great price for "exotic" san mai construction. The core steel is good but not great. Sharpens easily considering it's hardness, holds the edge well, steels well. A few people feel it chips too easily, most people say the knife is tough enough. Fit and finish is usually okay but not great -- especially around the handle. Lots of people don't like the handle, feeling it's too angular to be comfortable. Good, neutral balance.

Forschner (Fibrox and Rosewood): Inexpensive, stamped steel knife made from fairly soft stainless -- the same production technique and steel used in Forschner's Swiss Army Knives. Sharpens very easily. The edge is subject to rolling and seems to dull quickly, but is easily restored by steeling. In the greater scheme of things, the Forschners hold an edge adequately but not well -- in fact, that's their biggest weakness. Fit and finish is exemplary. A bit heavy compared to the other knives discussed here, but very light compared to forged European knives. The Rosewood handles are comfortable for every hand. The 10" chef's knife is well balanced for a pinch grip. Something we haven't talked about is blade profile. Forschner uses a "German profile" for its chef's knives, like most non-French European and American designed knives. I personally prefer a French profile, like French and Japanese knives. But IMO it's not enough a difference to make a difference for your first decent knife. .

MAC (Original Series - you can't afford the others): Inexpensive, stamped steel knife made from good steel to a GREAT design. The knife is extremely light -- something almost all pros like, but some people prefer more heft. The tip is rounded. The knife sharpens very easily, holds its edge nearly forever, responds to a steel very well. If you were a pro asking about your first pro knife -- this is what I'd jump to. Good fit and finish. I've never heard anyone complain about the handle. Good balance for most people.

Warther: This is an idiosyncratic choice. Moderately priced, very stylish, and somewhat idiosyncratic. A great blade made from great (stamped) steel. Not that easy to sharpen, but excellent edge holding -- on a par with much more expensive knives. Steels well. Good fit and finish.

The first three are knives are all excellent to learn on, and once you've developed some technique you'll feel you've outgrown them. The Tojiro will probably take you on to other, exotic Japanese knives. Your first French profile after the Forschner will make you wonder why I said it wasn't a big difference. Tojiro, Forschner and Mac will all introduce you to quality and make you thirst for better. You may eventually outgrow some aspects of the Warther, but it is a knife you'll keep forever.

Here are some retailers. Use the Google for the exact urls. Tojiro at Korin. Forschner at Cutlery and More. MAC Original at Epicurean Edge. Warther from Warther.

BDL

[jester king]

great post again bdl, i'll give all those a look, i'm not to hot on the "stamped" blade, i would really like a forged, full tang knife, thats easy to sharpen, holds an edge great, and will last a long time

[boar_d_laze]

Originally Posted by jester king

ya m8 you seem to know your stuff when it comes to knives, i think i've decided on the calphalon 8" chef's knife, and a set of stones mentioned here, also can i get a reason why that steel i showed isnt as good as stones?

A diamond steel cuts aggressively, takes a lot of material and leaves a rough edge. Coarser than a "butcher's edge," which is as coarse as you want a food prep knife. Although the edge can be made very sharp, it will not slice smoothly and will not chop cleanly.

Knives need to be steeled a lot more than they need to be sharpened. Steeling a knife on a diamond steel wears the knife down very quickly.

The contact area between knife and steel is very small. Because the area is small, the forces (pounds per square inch) on the edge are quite large. This magnifies the effect of getting the angle wrong and has a tendency to cut notches and scallops into the knife.

On the other hand, the diamond steel is very fast in the right hands. It's an okay choice for people who know how to steel and don't give a rat's @$$ about their knives.

BDL

[jester king]

oh ok, prolly why i see them on those cooking challenge shows, because there fast, also on a side note, how do i post a "quick" reply?

[boar_d_laze]

Originally Posted by jester king

great post again bdl, i'll give all those a look, i'm not to hot on the "stamped" blade, i would really like a forged, full tang knife, thats easy to sharpen, holds an edge great, and will last a long time

40 years ago "forged" meant quality and "stamped" meant cheap. That's not true anymore. While it's true the very, very best and most expensive knives are hand made and hand made means forged. You're not looking at anything like that. From a practical standpoint, up to about three times your price range, the performance and feel differences between forged and stamped are hype. There's nothing inherently better about a forged knife. In fact, modern stamping is more precise than 3 ton hammer forging. The Calphalons you're looking at are, I believe, hybrids -- with soft steel "forge welded" (i.e., sintered) around a stamped core. I'm not sure about the Tojiros, but I think so also.

All of the knives recommended have full tangs. That's overrated too in my opinion. There are some real advantages to full tang, but it's mostly the result of the switch from "true martinet" forging to "3 ton hammer" forging -- full tang knives are just easier to make in the type of forge that came into use after WWII -- so that's how they made them. Some of the best knives in the world, as well as quite a few in my block have rat tail tangs. A few of those are close to a hundred years old, so longevity isn't necessarily an issue. The only thing I don't like is the lack of rivets and exposed spine. I use those for measuring by comparison, and I'm glad my everyday knife (a 40 year old, carbon steel, 10" Sabatier) has them.

Usually edge taking (how sharp) is reciprocal with ease of sharpening and edge retention. The better one, the worse the other two, and vice versa. That's true of the five knives (my four + the Calphalon). The Warther has the best steel which takes some effort to move around however it sharpens very nicely and holds an edge better than any of the others. The MAC is probably the best balance of taking, holding and retaining. The Forschner, sharpens easiest -- which means a good job with inexpensive stones. It holds its edge about as well as any Europoean stainless knife -- as long as you use your steel a lot, which you should anyway. But, the rest of the group holds an edge much better than any European stainless knife. The Calphalon (based on what I know about VG-1 and knife geometry) and the Tojiro are about the same. The Tojiro will probably sharpen slightly sharper, but the Calpahlon will be a little easier and hold up better in defiance of the general rule.

As a practical matter, if you're cooking for two and making most of your own dinners and half of your lunches, this means that you'd sharpen the Warther about every 10 weeks, the MAC, Tojiro and Calpahlon every 7 weeks, and the Forschner every month. You should steel any of these at least once every day you take it out of the block, and whenever you feel a change in sharpness. You could get away with steeling the Warther a little less frequently maybe. But better to have the habit of sharpening daily.

I've fooled around with a Calphalon Katana in a store, and done a little research on them but have no real hands-on experience using or sharpening them -- although I've used and sharpened VG-1 steel. I found the Katanas a little on the thick side for a Japanese knife. Great fit and finish. The handle design isn't for everyone. The "Damascus" pattern will scratch very easily with any kind of abuse, and mostly disappear over time with use even if handled gently. It cannot be cheaply brought back. Based on the little I know about them, the Katanas are a lot of value for the money and an excellent choice. I would have thought their big chef's out of your price range. If your money will extend to a MAC Professional, get that.

FWIW, none of these knives can go into the dishwasher. The Forschner Fibrox (cousin to the recommended Rosewood) is made to go into a commercial dishwasher, but a home dishwasher will kill it in no time.

Don't think you're going to get any value out of any knife without owning an appropriate system (including a steel) and knowing how to use it. All knives get dull. The world's most expensive dull knife is just a dull knife.

You also need a good board. Good as in wood or Sani-Tuff. If you don't have one, maybe that should come before the knife.

That having been said, it's important to get some perspective. All you really need is a knife good enough to learn some skills -- including sharpening and maintenance. This isn't an earth shattering, life-changing decision. You'll be fine with anything decent. When you know more about how to, and how you use a knife, you'll have more money and more choices.

BDL

[foodpump]

The steel is just a matter of orthotics... When the edge of the blade rolls or curves over, the steel will straighten it out. However, you can only do this so many times before the edge fatigues and breaks off. This is the "black crud" you wipe off of your steel and blade edge every time you steel a knife.


I strongly suggest having a peek of Lee's book, "sharpening", if only to look at the pictures. Thre are a series of pictures taken with a micron microscope an show the edge on razor blades and other edge tooks. From this you can get an idea of what a good edge looks like, what a rolled over edged looks like, and why sharpening with finer and finer abrasives is a good thing.

[jester king]

once again thanks for the replies, i've looked at all the knives, and the calphalon 8" chefs knief looks to be the one i'd like, its 85$'s and i plan on getting the diamond steel to go with it and might get something else so i can get a free wooden cutting board, then i'll get the stones and practice on my walmart knives first

[foodpump]

If you like your knife, don't use a "diamond steel". As per BDL's post, it (dia. steel) abrades coarsely, and depending on how you hold your steel and knife, you can put some very serioulsy wierd and inconsistant bevels on your knife.

Get the knife of your choice, but practice sharpening on some Mall-Wart knives, and if possible, stay away from 'lectric sharpening machines and diamond steels. Getting the bevel right is just a mater of practice, but as many have said, there are a variety of jigs that can pretty much assure you of accurate bevel angles.