[phatch]

Originally Posted by boar_d_laze

A good freehand sharpener creates and maintains the profile (s)he wants.

No freehand sharpener will maintain the same angle session to session, and there's even some variation stroke to stroke. It's just the nature of the technique and humans. Some can hold it very closely, but they still vary. Over time, that edge will become convex through this technique. IMHO, people stress out too much over holding a precise angle. Close (within a few degrees) is good enough and produces a quality working edge. The convexity isn't anything to worry about.

It won't be as convex as a stropped edge or someone who intentionally puts on a convex edge. It's fairly well accepted principle on the knife forums such as bladeforums.com and knifeforums.com, even rec.knives on usenet.

The sharpmaker also includes slots for use as a benchstone for freehand sharpening. Spyderco sells ultra-fine rods. I have two sharpmakers I used early in my sharpening career. I got mine wholesale so they were about half of the standard retail price. They're fairly idiot-proof, but not real fast as you point out. When CI reviewed sharpeners, they were really down on the Sharpmaker and preferred the motorized Chef's Choice. To me it was clear they didn't understand sharpening well enough to get what the Sharpmaker can provide as fast as it can provide it. It's slower than some techniques but not that slow. I wouldn't let any of my knives near one of those motorized pre-set angle nightmares.

As with free hand, the sharpener must adjust the orientation of the blade to the sharpmaker as the blade curves to keep the edge perpendicular to the sharpening stroke. This is tricky in a knife with a lot of curve towards the tip (or a recurved blade). Because of this, there is a great propensity to round off the tip with the Sharpmaker and the usual trick is to start the stroke at the tip rather than at the tang end of the blade.

Sharpmakers won't put on a waterstone polish, but that's not necessary in the kitchen. You can, however, create a pretty amazing edge with one with practice and increasinlgy light strokes. Sal Glesser talks about this a number of times on the above mentioned forums and on the spyderco forum at Spyderco.com It's my opinion that as the swarf builds on the stones during a sharpening session, they effectively become finer and finer grit.

Most of the knife knuts at the forums deviate from the included instructions to handle the burr issue. Rather than alternating each stroke, they'll work one side to develop the burr, then the other to remove it, same as for a stone. In the chisel grind instructions, Spyderco again touches on removing the burr with a slightly angled very light stroke on the flat side. A similar technique is often employed with standard V-grind blades.

Many people use the sharpmaker to take off the shoulder on worn knives, a form of reprofiling. They usually lay a diamond stone on the rod. The rod sets the angle and the diamond stone does the cutting.

To me, the great weakness of the various crock stick styles for sharpening kitchen knives is that they're not long enough to use easily on long knives. 8 and 10 inch blades are much easier to sharpen on longer stones than the Sharpmaker or even than many freehand stones are.

While I convex all my pocket knives and hard use knives, I actually do most of my sharpening of kitchen knives on a fine diamond stone free hand. It doesn't produce an edge as sharp as I can get with other techniques, but the kitchen doesn't require them. The sharpmaker does the serrations on my bread knife--which would be easier on longer stones....

Phil

[ChefOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by boar_d_laze

To determine the proportional lengths between bevel lengths on an asymmetric bevel, like the UX-10's 15*, 70/30 edge; the ratio itself, "70/30," e.g., states the proportional relationship. The length of the bevel (hypotenuse) is a function of the sin of the given angle 75* (compliment of 15*) and the proportionality of the adjacent sides (70/30) is given. QED. Math isn't hard, it's just a foreign language.

Ok, so what does that mean in English? I think what you were trying to say to me is that one side of the edge is a 75 degree angle, and the other is a 15 degree, which is offset to one side (70/30) rather than in the middle (50/50).

If I was to re-profile the edge to a 50/50 edge, what angle should I use? I figured 15 degree angles on both sides wold work quite nicely.

All in all I can see why Misono's are known for their sharpness and edge retention, and offset edge will take more abuse that a straight edge, yet it can still achieve a high enough angle to be considered "sharp".

[boar_d_laze]

Originally Posted by ChefOfTheFuture

Ok, so what does that mean in English? I think what you were trying to say to me is that one side of the edge is a 75 degree angle, and the other is a 15 degree, which is offset to one side (70/30) rather than in the middle (50/50).

Actually, that message wasn't to you; it was to Phil who speaks trig and (hopefully) wasn't confused. The way you understood it wasn't what I meant, the knife is shipped with both edge angles set at 15*.

If I was to re-profile the edge to a 50/50 edge, what angle should I use? I figured 15 degree angles on both sides wold work quite nicely.

First: You're right that 15* on both sides is good.

Second: Even though the stock symmetry is 70/30, the stock edge angle already is 15* on both sides. The 70/30 asymmetry means the edge isn't exactly centered but pushed over to the right -- and has nothing to do with the angles.

All in all I can see why Misono's are known for their sharpness and edge retention, and offset edge will take more abuse that a straight edge, yet it can still achieve a high enough angle to be considered "sharp".

Another thing Misonos are known for is shipping knives that are not completely sharpened. This is common in Japan, where knife shops put the final edge on for the customer. You're lucky Misono sends its knives out about 80% sharp instead of plain dull. If you're handling a knife that feels a little disappointing, that's why. The bevels are shaped, and polished, but no one's ever pulled a wire and sharpened it off yet.

You're right that with 15* on each side the knife will "feel" plenty "sharp" -- that is, as long as you keep it actually sharp. I'm really glad you put "sharp" in quotes. There's an objective definition for "sharp" related to how narrow the edge is. For a culinary knife, 3/1000" is sharp; 1/1000" is VERY sharp.

Let me give you an example. I have a 12" K-Sab carbon that I use for heavy duty stuff, like breaking chickens, slabs of ribs and son on. The knife is sharpened with a double bevel of about 20* edge angle on the primary bevel and 25* on the secondary. So, with 25* on each side, the edge doing the cutting has a 50* included angle. I was using the freshly sharpened knife to break a chicken when someone called me. So I rested the knife edge on one of the wing tips, and looked up for a second from what I was doing, I must have pulled the knife a little, because when I looked down the tip was sliced off half way between joint and end. The knife cut through the tip without any more pressure than the weight of the knife. Sharp? You tell me.

Some edge geometries make a sharp knife feel sharper, some make a knife easier to sharpen, some perform better at certain tasks, etc. A 50/50, 15*, flat-bevel edge geometry is ideal for chopping which is something you do a lot of; it's also ideal for maintaining with a steel; and has some other strengths as well.

An asymmetric edge has less of a tendency to "wedge," when you're doing thin slicing chop-stick size pieces of soft proteins, and/or you need glass smooth surfaces. For most cooks who prepare western style food, 50/50 is the ideal edge angle. If this was a dedicated sashimi knife, or even if you were the fish chef de partie at a big deal haute cuisine, it would be a different story -- although under those circumstances you'd probably use a yanigaba instead of a gyuto. Your UX-10 is thinner, and made with steel as fine-grained as my old carbons, most of which I sharpen to 15*, 50/50, and I don't have any trouble at all making smooth cuts on fish, 2mm slices of pork, and anything else for that matter.

Anyway 50/50 is something you'll feel confident about maintaining; and sharpening your knife after the edge has worn, and keeping your knife sharp after a few hours of whacking it on the board does more than any exotic geometry.

BDL

[buzzard767]

Originally Posted by boar_d_laze

ISo, I was sharpening my wife's Hiromoto AS on my Indias and Arkansas stones. It was doable but time consuming. I'm not sure how AS stacks up against Misono UX-10 steel. It's nominally quite a bit harder, (HRc 63 vs. HRc 59), but carbon is a lot easier to sharpen than stainless. So ... kind of a knowledge dearth.

BDL

Hiromoto AS knives are hardend to Rockwell C Scale 60-62. Aogami Blue Super can easily be hardened in the 65 range but to do so increases the likelihood of chipping. The tougher steel at the lower hardness also makes it easier to sharpen.

[boar_d_laze]

Buzz,

Ever tried the UX-10 on Arkansas? Doable? I'd guess, as a practical matter, not.

BDL

[buzzard767]

Originally Posted by boar_d_laze

Buzz,

Ever tried the UX-10 on Arkansas? Doable? I'd guess, as a practical matter, not.

BDL

I have not. The UX-10 has such a good reputation that I'm surprised I've never owned one. I trashed my Arkansas stones a few years ago after I started using water stones.

Buzz

[ChefOfTheFuture]

All in all it's amazing that this thread was started on a question I had on my newly purchased Wusthof Ikon... and now its talked about all sorts of stuff, and the current debate is on sharpening.

Although I will say that this thread convinced me to buy a UX-10, and since then I haven't looked back. The knife is simply awesome, I'd prefer if it had an angled handle like the Ikon, but all in all I don't really care cause its a flawless knife.

[buzzard767]

Originally Posted by ChefOfTheFuture

All in all it's amazing that this thread was started on a question I had on my newly purchased Wusthof Ikon... and now its talked about all sorts of stuff, and the current debate is on sharpening.

Although I will say that this thread convinced me to buy a UX-10, and since then I haven't looked back. The knife is simply awesome, I'd prefer if it had an angled handle like the Ikon, but all in all I don't really care cause its a flawless knife.

Threads of any medium seldom produce a straight line. You have chosen a fine knife. Enjoy.

[ChefOfTheFuture]

As a matter of fact I enjoy it so much that upon receiving my next paycheck I'll probably purchase the 10.5" slicer and the 6" petty.

I was looking for a good straight edge slicer anyways, and before I met Misono I was probably going to get this Kershaw Shun Shun Classic 12-in. Hollow Edge Slicing Knife - Kershaw Shun Carving Knives & Forks.

As for the utility knife, even though some people think they are useless... I don't. When your working in cramped spaces, e.g. on the line, you need something relatively compact that can slice through just about anything and be easily stowed out of the way. I find most of my big blades are cumbersome when stashed on station and quite frankly can cause injuries to someone who doesn't see it. Usually I hide mine underneath a cutting board, which seems to avoid most accidents, but needless to say I work with some cooks who are less than intelligent... and it doesn't surprise me to see someone still manage to cut themselves all the while screaming at me like its my fault... but thats another story.

All in all building a knife kit was something I wanted to do over the summer, because I'm making money hand over fist... something that won't keep up in the winter once school eats up the majority of my schedule. So with a decent amount of disposable income coming my way, investing in a quality set of knives and stones is something that with proper care will last me most of my life; an easy decision.

On a side note, does anyone know a decent flexible fillet knife? One of the cooks I work with, has a snazzy Global set he won from our corporation. In that set it had this Global 8-in. Flexible Swedish Fillet Knife - Global Boning & Fillet Knives which is a nice knife, I just thought I'd ask for some other opinions.

[buzzard767]

Originally Posted by ChefOfTheFuture

On a side note, does anyone know a decent flexible fillet knife? One of the cooks I work with, has a snazzy Global set he won from our corporation. In that set it had this Global 8-in. Flexible Swedish Fillet Knife - Global Boning & Fillet Knives which is a nice knife, I just thought I'd ask for some other opinions.

There you go. First hand experience in pushing a forum thread off topic.

[boar_d_laze]

Chef of the Future:

If the flow at your station is like mine were when I worked saucier/saute you need a chef's, a slicer (for portioning, if for no other reason, a bread, and a petty. You don't have to justify the petty to me. Some people like having a small knife with an easy to control point and a high enough heel for chopping such as a santoku, small gyuto, or usuba. I agree with this for a home block, but unless you have a very spacious station that's getting to be a lot of knives.

When it comes to the Swedish style, you're venturing away from most Japanese manufacturers. Of those there are Global, Shun and MAC. The MAC is wonderful and cheap. Some people don't like Globals for working with raw meat because they feel the handle gets slippery. This isn't my experience, but may have something to do with the way I hold a knife and my particular hand size. Some people love Shuns. Not me, for a lot of reasons.

The shape is used by sportsmen a lot, so some of the sporting knife manufacturers make really good ones. Knives of Alaska might be the best. Rapala are very good and very cheap. The problem with the Rapapla and most other fishing knives for restaurant work is that they're made with steel which has a lot of chrome to resist salt water corrosion, but that effects performance in other areas. The Alaskas use better steel and don't have this problem.

The Warther is a great knife. Quirky, cute, great steel. Can you live with not-quite stainless? Everyone should have one Warther.

Forschner fibrox/rosewood is good, but not as good as a MAC. Cheaper though.

.Then come all the German usual suspects. IMO you do a mistake to dismiss these out of hand for specialty knives -- They're very good knives and you're talking about a shape that's not going to get the use of a gyuto. Plus all of the top lines will take and hold a 15* angle.

Speaking of shapes, I use a French profile for filleting. A French profile is the same as a slicer or a utility, but is very flexible. Compared to the Swedish shape, it doesn't gut quite as well, fillets slightly better, skins A LOT better, and portions A LOT better too (both because you can run the edge on the board). I use my 10" K-Sab, which is a medium flex, for large fish. And also use an 8" "Nogent" handled fillet sold by Thiers Issard Sabatier at The Best Things. It's an excellent knife -- but carbon. I sharpen to 15*

For pure stainless function, I very highly recommend the Forschner utility shape fillet knife in the Fibrox/Rosewood line. I've had a couple of these over the years which I've used for cheese and other table uses, as well as fish. Extremely easy knife to sharpen. Sharpen to 15*

If I were buying a Swedish style, I'd buy a Warther, an Alaska or a MAC. If I were buying a real knife, I'd buy one I already have -- Sabatier carbon or Forschner Rosewood.

BDL

[ChefOfTheFuture]

Forschner seems to be the way to go with Fillet knives. I almost completely over-looked them too. I bought a Fibrox offset serrated knife a while ago, and completely loved, so it was an easy sell to buy a fillet knife from them.

I noticed that they have a "Forged Professional" series which is described as "Made in Solingen, Germany and then polished, finished and sharpened in Switzerland. Made of high carbon stainless steel - Molybdenum/Vanadium (X50CrMo V15 steel), providing maximum sharpness and edge retention. Ice tempered to create a hardened blade that will sustain its sharpness longer and give desired effect when re-sharpened. Traditional hot-drop forging creates a superior steel product with increased elasticity and maximum internal strength." To me all that sounds eerily similar to the more well known Wusthof lines. I haven't used any Forged Professionals yet, but I figured they would be pretty darn close to Wusthof's. What do you think?

[boar_d_laze]

Originally Posted by ChefOfTheFuture

I noticed that they have a "Forged Professional" series which is described as "Made in Solingen, Germany and then polished, finished and sharpened in Switzerland. Made of high carbon stainless steel - Molybdenum/Vanadium (X50CrMo V15 steel), providing maximum sharpness and edge retention. Ice tempered to create a hardened blade that will sustain its sharpness longer and give desired effect when re-sharpened. Traditional hot-drop forging creates a superior steel product with increased elasticity and maximum internal strength." To me all that sounds eerily similar to the more well known Wusthof lines. I haven't used any Forged Professionals yet, but I figured they would be pretty darn close to Wusthof's. What do you think?

The Forschner Forged are no better or worse than any of the good "Germans" (which aren't actually all German). Knives in the top lines made by F. Dick, Henckels, Lamson, Messermeister, Wusthof, Victorinox and Viking are distinguishable only by handle. They sharpen the same, work the same, balance about the same, have very similar blade profiles, edge profiles, and are immaculately finished. Choose one over the other by cosmetics, your affection for a given handle, and sale price -- those are the only real differences.

There are only two types of steel popular with these jokers, X45CrMoV, and X50CrMoV. The X50 is a tiny bit stronger, but a tiny bit less tough. All the manufacturers use proprietary hardening processes, but they all net out about the same 55-57 HRc. Wusthof has the big name in the US, largely because Henckels had some quality control problems in the eighties, and lost their lead as a result. The other companies, for one reason or another, never got the market penetration and the favorable reviews. Henckels solved its problems long ago. But just trust me.

Use a Lamson 10" chef's in a commercial kitchen for a week, then a Wusthof, then an F. Dick. You'll sharpen the same number of times with the same results. Your arm and wrist will feel the same. Your cuts will look alike. Your no. 1 pan of mirepoix times will be equal. As the friendly lady once said, "No mattah. Alla time same same."

In my opinion, these are all excellent knives. Not my choice, no. I think these knives are clumsy and heavy. But some people like the heft, the radius, the belly. Certainly valid choices for a lot of people -- home and pro.

BDL

PS, You mentioned you'd like the UX-10 handle offset. Are your knuckles too close to the board? I suspect a grip problem that can be rectified with a little practice. Could you describe where your thumb and forefinger go when you hold the knife?. How tight you hold your little finger when you're chopping? How much room there is for your little finger on the handle?

[ChefOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by boar_d_laze

PS, You mentioned you'd like the UX-10 handle offset. Are your knuckles too close to the board? I suspect a grip problem that can be rectified with a little practice. Could you describe where your thumb and forefinger go when you hold the knife?. How tight you hold your little finger when you're chopping? How much room there is for your little finger on the handle?

It just took some getting used to, thats all. I use the pinch grip, and I had to "choke up" on it a little before I was able to use it efficiently. The only thing I had to get used to was where to rest my fingers along the bolster, because the UX-10 has a unique bolster that likes to stick out against the natural position of my hand. Now after learning how it likes to be handled, its comfortable. In comparison to my Wusthof Ikon, I'd take a better steel then a better handle any day. It's a shame Wusthof hasn't at least attempted to counter Henckels Twin Cermax line. It'd be interesting to see them produce an Ikon like knife with Jap steel.

In all honesty, every knife needs some "getting used to". For instance one of my sous chefs doesn't like the UX-10, because he says its "too light"... he prefers his sysco knifes... a typical professional answer if you ask me. All too often I find chefs looking to get things done as cheap as possible. To each his own.

[adamm]

the closest alot of chefs come to touching there knives on stones is a diamond steel. when i first got my hiromoto gyuto the sous chef ask how i would keep it sharpened when it dulled, my response was on my sharpening stones just how i keep my wusthofs sharp. alot of chefs never will sharpen there knives or learn to sharpen.