[wtdedula]

Hello All;
I am planning to remodel my kitchen soon and as a avid cook, I became interested in those commercial style ranges for the home from such companies as Wolf, Viking, and Miele among others. I am wondering if anyone has any of these and can recommend one over the other ? Also, do chef's generally perfer all gas, all electric, or a combination of gas electric (Gas cooktop & electric range) ? I am currently looking at the 36" wide unit with the char grill option. I do realize that these units require a special heavy-duty hood. Thanks for any advice you can provide.

Tim

[phatch]

Do you want the look of the professional range or the real deal?

Because the fire codes and other requirements for a real professional range installation are going to add to your costs and may not even be feasible for your kitchen. It's more than the hood. The hood will have to vent outside. You'll need fire rated wall board or cement board, a fire rated covering, a high capacity gas line will have to be run, and many jurisdictions also require a sprinkler system at this kind of stove.

The pro-looking home ranges are finicky, expensive and perform no better than much cheaper mainstream alternatives.

As to fuel, I'd go dual fuel. Gas cooktop and electric oven. But that bumps the cost again.

[amazingrace]

The installation of commercial ranges usually requires a different set of codes than those for home stoves, including the type of exhaust system required. In addition the burners on commercial ranges are designed to accommodate much larger pots, and have greater heat output. So unless you are also going to be using large commercial cookware, this presents a problem. I wouldn't recommed a true commercial range for home use. Many of the manufactures you mentioned also produce ranges that are scaled down for home use. Speaking only for myself, I would like a 6-burner gas cook-top with one electric convection oven, or a dual oven..one convection, and the other gas, with a broiler.

EDIT: everything phatch said too. great minds think alike

[boar_d_laze]

First, Phil and Grace are right as far as true commercial stoves in the home go. However, if I read you correctly, you're asking about commercial styled residential stoves, i.e., the "cut downs" Grace referred to.

I've had two commercial styled residential stoves over the years, both Vikings. The first was built by Brown when Viking contracted with them, the second built by Viking's current contractor (I forget who that is, offhand). I enjoyed the heck out of them.

Generally commercial-residential stoves are far more finicky, difficult to clean, liable to break and require time consuming and expensive repair, then a regular residential stove (or two) supplying the same amount of oven space and surface-burner acreage.

The extra BTUs commercial-residential stoves supply versus ordinary residential stoves does not equate to any improvement in sauteing, or any other type of cooking -- with the exception of bringing very large pots to temp quicker. Restaurant cooks actually use the extra heat from commerical stoves to preheat (and ruin!) pans quickly, rather than to actually cook anything. There are very few things cooked on a home stove that require more than "medium-high"heat.

However, some of the commercial-residential stoves do have extra features that either aren't available in ordinary residentials, or are just beginning to move in at the most expensive level. High performance broilers, for instance.

The main difference is styling -- and it's a significant difference. If you like the look and can afford it, you should buy it and not look back. When it comes to choosing the particular make and model -- try to research ease of cleaning and availability and cost of local repair, those are very important features but not particularly obvious. IMO, American is probably the best one currently available -- if you can get it fixed when it breaks. Residential Ranges by American Range

From a performance standpoint, a Wolf won't make you a better cook than a Viking, or a Viking make you better than a run of the mill Kenmore. But your kitchen is not all performance is it? It's a place you spend a lot of time, and there's not reason in the world it shouldn't be beautiful and make you feel good about spending time there. And the extra space is very helpful. A commercial style range is one of the few appliances that adds its cost to home value, too. At least if homes ever have value again.

You might not be aware, but a number of "commercial" builders don't actually build the residential stoves which are sold under their names. Wolf residential is owned and built by Sub-Zero -- the only relationship with Wolf commericial is the logo and the name. I think Viking actually left the commercial stove business -- and in any case their stoves are contracted out. And so on. This has a lot to do with the way stoves are built generally, which includes assembling chassis, but buying a lot of generic components from third party manufacturers and vendors.

If you want to increase your knowledge about the distinctions between commercial, commercial-residential and regular residential, we can help you.

If I were putting together a kitchen today, I might choose a top of the line residential for all the features (convection oven, continuous grates, etc.), and add a second, less expensive stove for extra burner and oven space -- or I might choose a commercial-residential with a grill, a griddle, infra-red broiler, convection oven, really sharp looking grates, a big stainless riser, etc. What can I say? I like cooking toys.

You weren't really asking about this, but I almost certainly would not put a true commercial in a home kitchen, unless I were building the kitchen around commercial equipment. One: You don't need it. Two: Most of the extra performance a commercial stove brings is either not important, or counter-productive. And three: Commercial stuff is noisy.

Dual fuel by all means, no matter the style of the stove. If there's still any advantage to a gas oven, I don't know what it is.

BDL

[ED BUCHANAN]

First of all do not buy stove in a retail store. Go to a rest. supply for the real thing. The ones for house .,why I dont know ? break down more and labor to repair is higher.
Buy gas not electric. In elec. you really can not regulate heat whereas gas you can. On electric models. you have low, med. high on the burners. thats it. From experience I can tell you do not buy Wolf, or Sub Zero biggest pieces of junk I ever used. Put 5 steaks on a wolf broiler and you will have to wait 10 minutes to put 5 more ,no recoup or lack of BTU s. If you are a good cook, it is not the stove that made you that way. I have worked in kitchens that we had very little equipment, and old at that and the food was great. Stick with top of line residential models. One thing I disagree with BDL about is gas and elec. are the same. Gas is more temperature controlable on the burners .
No heavy duty hoods are required on home models either, you dont need this silly extra expense. You are a home not a restaurant.

[boar_d_laze]

Originally Posted by ED BUCHANAN

First of all do not buy stove in a retail store. Go to a rest. supply for the real thing. The ones for house .,why I dont know ? break down more and labor to repair is higher.
Buy gas not electric. In elec. you really can not regulate heat whereas gas you can. On electric models. you have low, med. high on the burners. thats it. From experience I can tell you do not buy Wolf, or Sub Zero biggest pieces of junk I ever used. Put 5 steaks on a wolf broiler and you will have to wait 10 minutes to put 5 more ,no recoup or lack of BTU s. If you are a good cook, it is not the stove that made you that way. I have worked in kitchens that we had very little equipment, and old at that and the food was great. Stick with top of line residential models. One thing I disagree with BDL about is gas and elec. are the same. Gas is more temperature controlable on the burners .
No heavy duty hoods are required on home models either, you dont need this silly extra expense. You are a home not a restaurant.

I never said gas and electric are the same. I said no advantage to a gas oven. I ddin't say, but it appears I should have, that gas is a big advantage for the top; and, since you can now get gas convection ovens and gas self-cleaning ovens, and electric infrared broilers, the disparities between the two oven/broiler types isn't as great as it used to be, but electric enjoys a slight advantage.

I'm not sure if this is a disagreement between Ed and I or not -- but unless I was specifically building the kitchen to hold commercial appliances, I'd stay with residential. It's not only the hood which Ed points to, differences in plumbing, wiring, requirements for fire safe walls, all kinds of stuff. For a home cook, even a very serious home cook who cooks at a professional level (like me), there's no real pay off for all the extra trouble, other than the commercial look. Those extra BTUs aren't about cooking food better (except in the broiler), they're about cooking a lot of covers faster.

There are significant drawbacks to a full on commercial kitchen appliances in the home, like noise, heat and cleaning. And they break down a lot, presumably because they're not being used for their intended service. They're pretty much made to be left on all day, not to be turned on and off a lot.

Again, I'm not saying "don't do it." Just don't walk in with your eyes closed. Don't design a kitchen around a dream, then find out it's going to cost you another 12,500 in plumbing and gas runs. Don't spend $3,000 for a fridge, and another $3,000 for a hood to find out you can't have a conversation in the same room when either are running -- or in the same house when both are,

We use a lot of Wolf commercial ranges out here in the west, and they're very highly regarded. I don't know anything about built in broilers on a Wolf as I've never used one -- only the separate grills and salamanders which worked great. As I said, Wolf residential is not the same company. Only the name and logo are the same. They don't even use the same knobs (residential red - commercial black).

I wouldn't pay a lot of dough to have a commercial range shipped from the west to the east or vice versa. IMO, within a basic price range, commercial equipment is pretty much fungible -- other than the top grates and the chassis, they're all built out of the same components sourced from the same small group of third party vendors and sub-manufacturers -- burners, convection fans, thermostats, ignitors, valves, griddle plates, you name it.

And, whether you're using a true commercial in the home, or just an expensive commercial look -- I'd make sure I could get quick, local service before buying the stove. Start calling local stove repair stores and see what they service, how long service takes, how long it takes to get parts, and what they say is reliable. You already knows what your retailer likes -- that's why she carries it.

Sorry about all the carrying on. Been there, done that.

BDL

[ED BUCHANAN]

There are significant drawbacks to a full on commercial kitchen appliances in the home, like noise, heat and cleaning. And they break down a lot, presumably because they're not being used for their intended service. They're pretty much made to be left on all day, not to be turned on and of

BDL>In Essence we are both telling her the same thing. Also forgot one thing will your floor support the weight of commercial stove, I know of houses that would not.

[amazingrace]

Some commercial ranges will not even fit through a regular door opening. I now remember that when we bought a restaurant, many years ago, the existing stove was a standard domestic electric range (hard to believe..but true). We purchased a commercial range, then discovered we had to enlarge the door opening to get it into the building.

[wtdedula]

Hello All;
You fellas are great to provide so much information. I want to chime in here so you'd know that I am looking at (and learning from) your posts.

Jus to set the story straight, I was looking for a professional-style range for the home, definitely not anything commercial like you would actually install in a restaurant. I say "was" because well maybe that's not the best way to go considering what I'm hearing here. But I'm still really undecided.

I became interested in a professional style range after I saw some at a appliance showroom where I took a kitchen remodeling class. Before a few months ago, I didn't know they existed. Initially, two things about these stoves caught my eye at the dealer - They can be equipped with a charbroiler (I'd love to be able to grill burgers in the middle of winter like restaurants do), and as a enthusiastic home cook, I liked the appearance of them. As I read up on them, I learned of a third advantage - the burners get hotter than a residential stove which probably explains the need for a heavy duty hood.

However, with all that said, my primary purpose for remodeling my kitchen is to create more cabinet (storage) space so I wasn't too happy to learn that the hood would take away some of my cabinet space. Though if the benefits outweigh the disadvantages, I'd still go with a commercial style range. I am also very interested in reliability so whatever I get, I want to be sure it is reliable (If that's ever possible now).

I loved boar_d_laze's suggestion to ask service center's what they service and what is their most reliable brand. I didn't think of that but now that you suggested it, that's a great idea.

I think you all have all suggested that a gas cooktop is the the most perferred by chef's. I actually have a electric cooktop now but wouldn't mind switching to gas in my next stove. I get the impression that an electric oven would be an OK idea.

Actual user reports on the professional style ranges are hard to come by but the few reviews I found were mixed. Actuall more were bad than good but sometimes I think people only review products when they have a bad experience and not when they had a good one. I was actually consdiering Wolf but some of you don't like that brand.

If I do end with a professional style oven, I don't think I'd have it shipped. I'd buy locally.

While I'd love to hear from anyone who has something to contribute, I would also like to hear from folks who actually own one of these professional style for the home (NOT Commercial) ranges.

Tim

[boar_d_laze]

Tim,

Let's get our terminology straight so we're on the same page. We're talking about a commercial styled residential stove. I call them commercial residentials.

You can use a regular hood, as long as it's the right width.

The extra BTUs you get on a commercial residential don't really mean much in terms of your actual cooking. Store salesmen, manufacturer's brochures and even some good magazines talk about the "power to saute," but pal, it's a bunch of baloney.

For one thing, BTU doesn't actually mean heat, it's a measure of fuel use. For another a "medium-high" stove setting on a regular residential stove is the right temperature to cook almost anything which requires "high" heat. The only way you'll use the difference in a positive way is to bring stock pots to the boil. Otherwise, you'll just use it to wreck your pans. Trust me on this, I've got nothing to gain by lying to you and I really don't care if you want a high-zoot stove or not. They are very cool.

A grill is a very nice feature, but it's going to cost you. They also tend to be (a) messy, (b) unreliable, (c) smoky, and (d) a little small. The rolled steel griddles they put on these things are great.

I've owned two commercial residentials. Both Vikings, but they were actually built by two different companies. I wouldn't have bought the second one but it was part of a very complicated barter arrangement for a fee owed me, which otherwise would not have been paid. I wasn't particularly thrilled with either except for the two oven, six burner, grill/griddle size and styling.

If you're having trouble trying to figure out whether I'm a professional cook or not, I do too. I'm an ex pro, and have been a pure home cook for many years.

The "best" for features, bang for the buck and general reliability is probably American. I left a link to the manufacturers website on my first post to you. Don't know if you went there or not. Take a look.

Wolf is expensive, doesn't have the greatest rep for reliability and wins the good looks contest hands down. If you can get a great guaranty and a great service arrangement -- might be worth the extra money.

GE Monogram -- Pretty good. Miele ditto. These are tilted a little more towards the residential than other commercial-residentials. Might as well add Thermador in there too.

Jenn-Air, one step down. Cheaper though.

Imperial -- Kind of an odd design, but if you want an elevated griddle and broiler, go for it.

DCS -- OK.

Say no to Four Star. Say no to Dacor too. Horrible reliability.

Yes to the gas top with an electric oven/broiler. Gas top kicks electric's behind. If you've been cooking with electricity, you don't know what you've been missing. Cheaper too.

Consider a cook top with a grill and a wall oven as your primaries; and putting a separate, inexpensive, basic dual-fuel stove in the corner. This will get you all the space, number of ovens, and so on with a lot of flexibility in terms of where to put things. Really good for a two cook home. Next kitchen I design...

What else?

BDL

[wtdedula]

Hi boar_d_laze;
Thanks for your additional thoughts and comments. I did check out American yesterday. I also found only two reviews - one was great and the other was terrrible. See American Range AR-6 Gas Kitchen Range Reviews. Buying guides & consumer product reviews at Epinions.com. Though these may be commercial units and also it's not possible to determine quality and reliability with so few reviews.

Got a couple of questions - what brings you to the conclusion that American is a reliable brand with the most bang for the buck ? Have you owned one, do you know anyone who does, have you read reviews, etc ? The one reviewer said his convection motor burned out twice but once again, two reviews aren't enough to make a decision as to reliability of a brand.

You have said that you have owned Viking - How do you like them and would you recommend then ? You mentioned you weren't particularly thrilled. I know what you liked about them (two oven, six burner, grill/griddle size and styling) but what didn't you like about them that made you "Not particularly thrilled"?

The teacher (Who was actually a kitchen designer) at the class I took recommended Miele and it looks like you think they're OK.

I think I can get around all of the drawbacks of a particular manufacturer's stove if it's reliable and if it does break down, has a good service network.

Back to your Viking - despite all you dont like about them, have either unit required repair or service ? Additionally, do you feel that it's easy to find someone who can service them if necessary ?

You mentioned ...
Consider a cook top with a grill and a wall oven as your primaries; and putting a separate, inexpensive, basic dual-fuel stove in the corner. This will get you all the space, number of ovens, and so on with a lot of flexibility in terms of where to put things. Really good for a two cook home. Next kitchen I design...

Boy I'd love to have the space to install all that but my kitchen is relatively small. If you'd like to see a top view of my proposed kitchen design, click the following link ...

http://www.dedula.net/Dedula%20Top%20View.jpg

Tim

[Dillbert]

Tim -

some residential cooktops do require an outside vented hood with minimum height above the burners. check the manufacturer's specs.

and as for asking a dealer/distributor which is their most reliable - give that some more thought. sales clerks and the like will have not a clue; the repair people/manager have not a clue as to what is sold, only what they have to repair (they could tell you the worst record....); the parts counter should have the best idea presuming (1) the person you are speaking to started before last Tuesday and (2) they carry and service all the brands you are considering.

I have a six burner Viking - sealed burners, heavy cast iron grates, six years old. grates are warping, electronic ignition- their highly touted "safety feature" - works only when it feels like it, each of the six grates has four little tiny rubber feet - not as big as a pencil eraser - which require replacement about every 18 months - the dealer wants $16 for a package of four feet - Viking is not at the top of my list.

[boar_d_laze]

Originally Posted by wtdedula

I also found only two reviews - one was great and the other was terrrible. See American Range AR-6 Gas Kitchen Range Reviews. Buying guides & consumer product reviews at Epinions.com. Though these may be commercial units and also it's not possible to determine quality and reliability with so few reviews.

Got a couple of questions - what brings you to the conclusion that American is a reliable brand with the most bang for the buck ? Have you owned one, do you know anyone who does, have you read reviews, etc ? The one reviewer said his convection motor burned out twice but once again, two reviews aren't enough to make a decision as to reliability of a brand.

Worked on a lawsuit a few years ago which centered around "gourmet" kitchen installations. Our two experts both recommended American and Imperial over everything else.

You have said that you have owned Viking - How do you like them and would you recommend then ? You mentioned you weren't particularly thrilled. I know what you liked about them (two oven, six burner, grill/griddle size and styling) but what didn't you like about them that made you "Not particularly thrilled"?

Same problem with the ignitors that Dilbert had, and it seems as though he and I draw the same ultimate conclusion. Despite the beauty of the stove, there was an unfortunate lack of quality here and there. Difficult to clean. Expensive to repair -- "It is said that the children of Viking repairmen have straight teeth and good educations."

The teacher (Who was actually a kitchen designer) at the class I took recommended Miele and it looks like you think they're OK.

They have a good reputation for reliability at the expensive end. Perhaps this has something to do with not attempting to clone a commercial stove so exactly and to go with a range of components they understand. Oddly, or perhaps not so oddly if you understand manufacturing in general, the more expensive stoves get, the more tempremental and idiosyncratic they become.

I think I can get around all of the drawbacks of a particular manufacturer's stove if it's reliable and if it does break down, has a good service network.

That's certainly true, but consider the next level down as well -- like the high end Kenmores and so on. I'm not making any recommendations particularly, but I've got a Westinghouse now that isn't giving me any tsurris at all. What a reilief!

Back to your Viking - despite all you dont like about them, have either unit required repair or service ? Additionally, do you feel that it's easy to find someone who can service them if necessary ?

Yes to service -- although some things, like the ignitors, just weren't worth it to repair. I worked in professional kitchens for a few years and got used to lighting stoves with a sparker.

my kitchen is relatively small. If you'd like to see a top view of my proposed kitchen design, click the following link ...

http://www.dedula.net/Dedula%20Top%20View.jpg

Nice design, with a tight space! My only recommendation (if you haven't thought of them already) is a book case under the breakfast bar at the island.

BDL