[Chrismitch]

Hi Folks, we are in the process of yet another remodelling project. I think this is house number 7. Like other members with similar questions I have become confused with information overload on gas ranges, however, one that I haven't read is whether to purchase the drop-in models as opposed to the range-top (which is more professional looking.) Will we be frustrated with the smaller heat output on some of the burners in the drop-in styles? The comments from some of you is that these brand names are overpriced is appreciated and yet when doing over a house for resale, the brand name recognition is a selling point. The cost difference is dramatic between the drop-in and the range-top, about a $1,500. Our small town offers the Viking, Wolf and Thermidor plus the regular brands like Maytag and Kenmore etc.
Thanks for your input.

[Dillbert]

depending on how the transition from counter to "cooking doohicky" is made, cracks/gaps present dirt traps.

I have a 36" six burner Viking. I like the cooktop design for cleaning (sealed burners, transition, etc) but Viking has proven unreliable and high maintenance (cost&effort)

after 2-3 yrs the ignition sparkers are iffy - they work when they want to with no apparently reason(s) why / why not. parts are extremely expensive - and only available through brick & mortar "authorized dealers"

at the time I preferred the overall design of the Wolf, but they did not offer sealed burners (then) - that may have changed.

'the name' is indeed a selling point, but I would not recommend Viking. it may not be your problem, eventually, but customer happiness is a point of recommendation should you rely on that.

[Chrismitch]

Thanks for the reply Dilbert. Many of the posts indicate that there have been problems with servicing the Viking. In a small town like ours, service is often difficult so it's good to hear that your experience has been fine. Moving the pots on and off with the spill factor is always an issue - that's what toothpicks are for aren't they? Many an happy hour has been spent digging out grimy bits from around edges of burner rings on our old electric models. And sinks, yech!

[ED BUCHANAN]

Neither are any good. I have worked in houses that had Wolf and Thermidor. Problems with both electronic ignition burns out at least once every 2 years plus other things... Wolf commercial rest. equip. is even worse. I would stick with a Common brand that can be serviced by anyone(maytag, kitchen aid, magic chef etc,) although I have not used these, they cant be any worse .Happy Hunting.

PS check out Consumers report, see what they say.

[Chrismitch]

It is scary to hear the service problems that can occur, what happened to the old appliances that never saw a repairman? My Mother had a 35 year old Westinghouse fridge in her home that she had bought new, it never ever saw a repairman.

Do other members have similar comments as Ed, I have friends that have had a Wolf range for 7 years and they love it.

[ChrisLehrer]

Originally Posted by Chrismitch

It is scary to hear the service problems that can occur, what happened to the old appliances that never saw a repairman? My Mother had a 35 year old Westinghouse fridge in her home that she had bought new, it never ever saw a repairman.

These industries heard about "planned obsolescence," is what happened. See, if you sell an appliance that never breaks, you don't get to sell something to that customer again, get it? So you make something that will wear out in X years, deliberately.

My parents built a house in northeastern Vermont, back of beyond, 35 years ago. They bought a fairly standard solid Kitchen-Aid brand dishwasher. At that time, that was a Hobart, actually. Now about two years ago, it suddenly had the hiccups and started spilling its water, so we had the repair guy in. He pulled out two cherry pits that my wife had allowed in, and then it was fine. Still is. Why? Because at that time, they built the things to last. Nowadays, good luck buying any dishwasher that lasts more than 10 years: they're not built that way.

If you're planning to turn the house over soon (good luck in THIS market!), get a Viking -- sexier name, and you won't see the repair problems in a year. If you're planning one day maybe who knows, get a $700 drop-in by somebody like GE or Frigidaire or whoever. You want top-of-the-line but without frills. Look for it: every line from people like this has a break-point. Below X line, you get X without something, for economy, and oh heck if it breaks, who cares. Above X line, you get X with some extra piece of useless gimcrackery. Buy X, and it'll cost about $700, I betcha.

Installed separate range and oven is primarily cool and worth doing if you can mount the oven in the wall, like on TV. That's saleable, provided you have granite countertops. You're aiming at the "wow, great kitchen!" market. If it's just going to be installed separately at normal level, don't bother -- you'll make less, or anyway no more, than what you pay for the separate installation.

If you're doing complete redo, where you're doing the granite countertops together with the range and the oven all together, then separate starts to make sense. Just put the oven in the wall somewhere, about 2 feet above where it would normally rest, and you're gold. Make sure the range is inset in the granite, and get sealed burners. At that point, you might consider a Viking oven for the name and a less ritzy range for the actual utility, unless of course you're planning to flip the house in under a year. If the latter, be sure to get 6 burners and one of those multi-section grating top things that make the whole range flat, like an imitation flattop.

And remember to bake some bread and make some fresh coffee when you show the house.

[Dillbert]

true, as it goes, but:

>>>>Our small town offers . . .

in a small town, there is the issue of reputation. cheap junk goes in, good reputation does not come out . . . . you'll be dead and buried and some 90-yr old who was a kid when her parents bought the house will be telling her g-g-grand-kids never buy a house from <x> cuze they build it cheap and it don't last.

[dscheidt]

Wolf, Viking, and the other "these people want a fancy appliance, but don't have the sense to know what that really should mean, put lots of stainless steel on it, and take their money" brands don't have the sales volumes to work out problems. If GE designs a stove that doesn't work right, they find out fairly fast, because they sell more in a week or two than viking does in a year. So they sell things that break, and when they break, the people who service them say "Hmm. Idiot with too much money, charge double.", so they cost a lot to fix.

[Chrismitch]

You folks are cracking me up, I'm still laughing about the 'charge double' quip.

And to ChrisLehrer, we are doing the granite and making the kitchen as 'chi-chi' as we can on a limited budget. We are lucky that the separate JenAir wall Oven and Micro is in great condition still and it can be updated by just changing the black glass front to stainless. This is our 8th house reno always on a budget, and I have become pretty good at renos for less. We are reconfiguring the kitchen yet re-using most of the boxes and doors. We have sanded and stained the cabinet doors, then sent them to be lacquered. They look amazing. Total cost including new boxes and re-installing the cabinets is less than $5000. (Not including the granite of course but I've done a partial trade on that.)

We are still needing advice on choosing a drop in gas model compared to a range top.
The range tops have full 15,000 btu's on each burner while the cooktops have a simmer burner and a moderate burner. When I've got 16 people in for dinner it can get a bit hectic, especially when someone shows up with something that needs cooking. Do I go for the full btu option or not? And I've been reading about the Blue Star gas tops. Comments.

[dscheidt]

Originally Posted by Chrismitch

You folks are cracking me up, I'm still laughing about the 'charge double' quip.

No quip. Same parts and service will cost you more for an over-priced lemon than they would for a mainstream appliance. You'll probably also pay more for living in neighborhood where people have over-priced lemons. That's the way it works.

[rbrosseau]

Chrismitch:

Hey, my name is Ryan and I am a former appliance servicer (7.5 years exp) and have experience on many of major brands.
As for what brands to get, really your budget will determine what you should get. Having said that NO one brand makes the best of any product, so prepare to mix and match. And No one makes a product that is perfect.

My personal favorites while servicing were the sub-zero and wolf lines (both made by same company). Not because they never broke, because they do, but because their warranty and customer service is by far the best. They warranty the longest of any of the premium brands, and seemed to treat customers better than anyone else.

My second favorite brand was Miele. They make the best dishwasher available in america hands down. They also make some very nice wall ovens and cooktops. But they are very European in style (read small) and don't always fit with what an American consumer is looking for size wise. They are also a very close second in customer service to wolf/subzero. Also reasonable to repair given the initial cost and repair prices of other high end units

Brands that i would definitely stay away from are:

Kitchenaid: An often overpriced version of an identical Whirlpool product.

Maytag/ Jennair/ Amana: Now a Whirlpool subsidiary and not a Maytag product, also see Kitchenaid

Viking/ Ultraline: They only make cooking appliances, (and they don't even make all the ones they sell) so you really don't know what you are getting. They also are very repair prone. (burners, ignition systems, hinges, gaskets, oven linings etc)

Thermadore/Bosch: With the exception of the dishwasher (a very good unit) these tend to also be repair prone and built delicatly.

Frigidaire Gallery: A very exspensive version of plain old frigidaire, bigger price same appliance

GE: Anything they make is usually a piece of crap, poor warranty, poor quality, and usually repair prone (including the stuff from the top chef tv show). And often expensive to repair.

Kenmore: Not even a Kenmore, these are simply re-badged units built by whoever tenders the best offer to sears on a given specification. I have even seen the supplier change in a single model year from one to another. As a consumer you have no idea what you are getting. You may decide that the Frigidaire is not for you and buy a Kenmore only to end up with a Frigidaire built unit.

There are obviously others but those are the major ones

Brands worth considering:

Whirlpool: Some products are decent and reasonably priced as well you can get it fixed by practically anyone for little money. Not the best performing most of the time but wont break the bank either.

Frigidaire: As long as you don't get anything too cheap or too expensive, these can be a really good value. See whirlpool for why.

LG: Making some very good products as of late as well as offering the best non-high end warranty. The dishwasher is kind a crappy but the rest of there stuff is decent to really good. Again dont go too cheap or too expensive to get your real value.

You can get more obscure with brands but the problem then is service, installation etc.

other decent high end brands are..

Dacor
AGA
DCS/ Fsher and Paykel (Same company)
Gagganeau (a thermadore/bosch brand)


Hope I was informative and not too boring. Any questions about anything in particular give a shout on here.

later

[DuckFat]

Boy do I ever dissagree with some of the advice here. Let me start by saying I actually own a Viking. So many seem to have this strong opinion about them that have probably never used one. Mine us ten years old. Prior to that I was buying a new range every 5 years and with Kitchen Aid I needed to buy an extended service contract just to get through the five years. My 30" open burner self cleaning Viking was a little over 4k at the time. They are acutually a little less now. I have probably spent a total of $500 in repairs over the ten years and that includes one new spark module.
The electronic ignition is the weak point in any brand. If you keep it more than five years you will probably replace that part.
Viking probably has the largest dealer and service network for any commercial style range.
I put a Blue Star in a second home and had nothing but service head aches. Make sure you check for service availability before you buy no matter what the brand is. Viking and Wolf have gone to sealed burners only on the self cleaning models in the 30". I have no idea what size the OP was after but I thought I'd weigh in as an actual Viking owner with a positive experience.
I think we all know Viking dish machines and fridges are made by other companies with the Viking label. Viking makes all of their own ranges and cook tops and they now have a true professional line although it has sealed burners.

[Dillbert]

>>So many seem to have this strong opinion about them that have probably never used one.

I own one, I use mine on a daily basis.

>>The electronic ignition is the weak point in any brand.

not according to the people who service mine.

>>Viking probably has the largest dealer and service network for any commercial style range.
no clue as to whether that is true.
please provide link for online service parts:
(I've not found any onlines sources; it's all exclusively through dealerships at galactic sized mark ups)


>>they now have a true professional line although it has sealed burners.
what makes an professional model require non-sealed burners?
what makes it "professional" - other than marketing hype?

>>Viking makes all of their own ranges and cook tops
please post the source for that information / fact.

[rbrosseau]

Duckfat:
I am glad to hear of your happiness with your Viking product. Every product has its good and points. When people ask me what they should buy, I normally suggest that they are not so much picking out what they like in a product what problem they can live with in the future.

I will certainly agree with you that the electronic ignition system is the week point in any gas range regardless of make ( eaton and honeywell make probably 90% if all the ignition electronics used by all manufacturers). However, viking makes only ranges and cooktops of there own design. they do not make all of there wall ovens, or any of there hoods, dishwashers (as noted), etc. So it is hard for the average consumer to determine what the are getting in some cases. Further, having been a factory trained viking repair person, I can tell you that they over charge for parts to the tenth power and that there designs are poor from an engineering standpoint. They may or may not be functional from a user standpoint (i have in fact not owned most of these brands) but from a repair standpoint they are a nightmare to fix. This means higher labour costs for repairs as well as parts costs compared to, for example wolf (still not cheap exactly but more reasonable).

As I have noted in my previous post, Kitchenaid in most cases is little more than an overpriced mid level whirlpool. So with that in mind you get what you pay for, it will likely work fine for the average person but not keep up with an energetic home cook (lower btu burners, smaller oven cavities, cheaper electronics etc), regardless of the fact you've over paid or not.

I am vaguely familiar with Blue Point, having never worked on one, but thoroughly looking them over at a training seminar, they appear to a reasonable if not simple sort of copy of the better known brands. They are made cheaper and of course cost less. Another line that is very similar is Five Star. Many of the burners, valves and other core components of these machines are made by a few manufactures (ie eaton, honeywell etc) and thusly what you are often paying for is creature features if you will; electronic igniton, better gaskets, fancy paint job etc.

You are also correct with regards to Viking having a large service force, but this neither here nor there as almost all of these servicers will in fact provide factory authorized service for any well known brand of product, high end or not. For example when I was in the field our company was authorized for all of the big US brands, LG, SUB/Wolf, Dacor, Fisher/Paykel, DCS, Best, Broan, Smeg, Asko, Eurotech, AGA, vent a hood, Ducane, weber, woods, aeg, miele, Bosch/Thermadore plus more, and even one off jobs for odd ball brands that didn't have local service personal like Creda, and Philips.

Ultimatley it is up to the consumer to weigh the pros and cons of each unit and pick based on their own personal tastes.

PS another brand of refrigerator that I would recommend is Northland from Greenville Michigan. They are Sub Zero in style with built in looks and features but have a overhead (or remote i believe) cooling unit witch makes for easy and quick (read cheaper labour costs) repairs.

[DuckFat]

Dilbert, I'm sorry I don't do internet arguments. My experience is obviously not the same as yours. I'm pleased with my product.

rbrosseau, I agree with most of what you are saying. The other brand I referenced was Blue Star which used to be a Garland product. Not every one can service them under warranty unless there is a service agreement.
In fact what they try to do is just send parts and stiff you on the labor. At least that was my experience.
In regards to the cost of repairs all I can tell you is the way service techs operate here. They have a service manual just like an auto dealer with time estimates for each repair. High end brands like Wolf, Viking, Thermador and Blue Star are all charged at the same hourly rate depending on the size of the unit being repaired.
The Five star is an interesting product. It sort of bridges the price gap between the higher end brands and a standard consumer range.
I also agree with you about Viking making only ranges and Cooktops. Thanks for catching my error and thanks for plugging a product made in Michigan!