[jester king]

hello, i've been cooking for awhile now, and all my knives at home well suck, so i'm looking for a nice new knife budget being around 100$'s, the main tasks i do are cutting various meats, slicing veggies/fruits, sometimes doing a fine cut on them, so i was wondering which of these knives would fit the bill

http://www.calphalon.com/calphalon/c...Id=CLCat100485

or

Tenmi Jyuraku Series Japanese Knife,Japanese Kitchen Knife,Japanese Chef's Knives.Com

the santoku blade on that link^^

any insight would be great

thank you

[LessTalkMoreRoc]

Best thing for you to do is go and touch and feel them. See what you consider feels comfortable. What I use and what you'd like could be 2 completely different things. Plus don't limit yourself to a $$$$ amount for a set of knives, it's better to by one knife at a time and purchase high quality knives if thats what your budget allows.

[jester king]

thanks for the reply m8, i cant really go pick up and feel the knives, and the 100$ budget is for the one knife, not a set, but i've heard great things about both knives so right now i'm just trying to pick what one to get outta the two

[buzzard767]

Go with the Hiromoto AS.

[boar_d_laze]

Agree with buzz. Between the two, the AS are much better. The AS are exceptionally good knives, and a relative steal at the price.

Caveats on the Hiromoto -- Presumably you already know the actual edge is not stainless, but carbon steel. Aogami Super (the AS in the name) to be specific. It's going to need a little extra care -- as in you have to rinse and wipe down after cutting anything acid, like citrus, tomatoes, or onions. The AS is very hard and requires water stones to do a good, reasonably quick job of sharpening. If you don't already have a good set of water stones, factor their cost in. I don't want to seem hard-@$$, but if you can't afford to sharpen it, you can't afford the knife. A blade is only as good as its edge.

If your home knives ever were decent, you might consider investing in a good set of stones and extending their life until you can afford the Hiro.

BDL

[jester king]

thanks for the replies m8, ya all my home knives are from walmart so there not good at all lol, i would love to save up from some stones for sharpening too

[boar_d_laze]

In that case, how about a MAC from the Superior line, and an 8" Norton combination (coarse/fine) India .

MACs sharpen up very well, and handle still better. As good as anything really. Not the same, unbelievable edge holding as a Hiro AS, not the class, or the looks. Not as sexy as the Calphalon either. It's just a no-nonsense, pro knife.

The Norton combination India (the famous IB-8) is a great stone. It will sharpen all but exotic steels, take most knives to razor sharp, is one of the two most common stones in any pro kitchen and is very inexpensive. The only problem with the India is range. The coarse side is a little slow for major repairs, and the fine side won't polish -- although, as I said it sharpens quickly and extremely well. Cutlery and More (great store, BTW) sells them as cheaply as anyone.

The equivalent waterstone is a Norton 220/1000 which is the first stone for lots of people as well as the anchor of a set of four grits (220/1000 and 4000/8000). The stone itself is reasonable, but you need a flattening stone to maintain it. By the time you're out the door, you've dropped around $70.

On a more personal level, I don't like santokus. Well, not so much don't like as don't understand. If you have decent knife skills, you can get so much more production and versatility out of a 9" - 10" chef's knife. If you don't, a short santoku won't compensate for what you don't know even if it has a slightly flatter learning curve. That's me. If you like santokus, whatever works.

My coarsest two surfaces are India, in fact they're an IB-8. My finer surfaces are a soft and a black Arkansas stones. A four stone set profiles, starts to sharpen, finishes sharpening and polishes. I use my "oil stones" dry as opposed to using them with oil or water. If you decide to get India or Arkansas stones talk to me about sharpening before buying oil. I didn't recommend Arkansas stones or any of the various tri-hones (you still see a lot of those in kitchens and butcher shops) because they won't work well with the hard steels you find in good Japanese knives. Since that looks like the way you're eventually headed, why waste the money? I'm also not recommending a rod-guide sharpening system, set of V sticks or any other gag. The good ones will cut too deeply into your budget. And I'm old and crusty enough to believe a pro should be able to freehand on a stone. In the job description, doncha know?

BDL

[Dirk Skene]

The main thing is ... what are you comfortable holding? .... I use a 10" chefs knife. I DO NOT like the santouku. My prep cook LOVES a santouku. I also have a 4"

[jester king]

thanks BDL for the post, very informitave i must say, you say the AS has exotic steel in the handel, and the calphalon has a more hard steel, it seems that the AS takes alot more to maintain then the calphalon, so if i got the calphalon and a set of stones would that be a good choice? cuz i dontknow much about sharpening and would hate to ruin such a nice knife as the AS is

[jester king]

also can i get a link to those stones?

thank you

[boar_d_laze]

Good thinking.

Here's a link to the IB-8 stone I told you about: Norton 8 x 2-in. India Combination Oil Stone - Norton Sharpening Stones

Learning to use stones isn't that difficult. Don't be intimidated. Learning to use one really well, takes some time though. I learned to sharpen in the Cub Scouts, more than forty-five years ago, and I'm still learning. You can practice on your Wal-Marts. If and when you buy a stone, let me know what kind and I'll teach you how to use and care for it. Remember that the IB-8, by itself is a stop gap. At most, it's only part of a set of stones. You'll either add to it or switch to waterstones with your first really good knives.

As part of your knife care regimen you'll also need to purchase a suitable steel if you don't already have one, learn to use it, and use it frequently. I'm sorry for not mentioning this before. If you already own and use a steel, you're more than halfway to knowing how to use stones.

The Hiromoto and the Calphalon are both san mai. Let me explain. A san mai knife is made of three layers: A thin, hard steel core sandwiched between layers of softer steel. The outer layers are called jigane, and the core is hagane. The idea is that the flexible outer layers protect the hard steel from chipping, dinging and breaking. Their softness makes a san mai blade easier to sharpen than a blade made from a hagane only, because most of the metal you remove is soft. Warikomi is a type of construction, and a term you might run across. It's very similar to san mai. Although they're slightly different, for practical purposes you can regard them as the same.

The Hiromoto hagane is made from a kind of steel called "Aogami Super." Aogami is a trade name for a group of of steels made by the Hitachi foundry. "Super" is a particular flavor of aogami. The word aogami means "blue wrapper," because the steel is shipped in blue paper. Aogami Super is not stainless, but it's actually fairly stain resistant as carbon steels go. It takes an edge extremely well, holds it unbelievably well, and considering how hard it is, is extremely resistant to chipping. Hard to sharpen, though.

The Calphalon hagane is made from a steel called VG-1. The VG family is a group of stainless steels that were initially developed especially for knives. As stainless goes, VG-1 is very good. It sharpens more easily than similarly hard non-VG steels, and is more flexible and ding resistant. In the case of "damascus" look (look because they aren't really damascus), the jigane is composed of layers of very soft stainless -- usually 403. (I'm not sure, but believe the Calphalon jigane is 403.) The jigane is ground than acid-etched to bring out the pattern. The layering and patterning does nothing for performance, but is quite attractive. The Japanese do not call it "damascus," but "ink pattern" because it looks like water that has had a drop of ink put into it. For a VG-ink pattern knife the Calphalon is very reasonably priced. The Calphalon is made to look a lot like a Shun Elite or Classic, and out of similar materials. But the grinding is different; the Calphalon is not as thin and won't give the same high level of performance. Also, the handle is highly stylized and idiosyncratic; you won't necessarily like it.

Please tell me what you like about santokus specifically, and why you're choosing one instead of a chef's knife. As I said, their appeal is a mystery to me, and I'm very interested in learning why others prefer them.

BDL

[buzzard767]

Often the Hagane is only and inch or so wide. You can see how they do it on this Moritaka page.

[boar_d_laze]

Originally Posted by buzzard767

Often the Hagane is only and inch or so wide. You can see how they do it on this Moritaka page.

Buzz,

I'm not sure what you mean. I thought I understood Japanese blade construction, but you've got me doubting myself.

My understanding of san mai (three layer) construction was that while the steel for the hagane may start as a pied of bar-stock, it is eventually forged (or rolled), flatter and wider and extends through the entire knife. Is this wrong? How?

Further, my understanding of san mai (three layers) was that after forging (or rolling and stamping and forge-welding), the blade is ground to shape. When the grinding cuts through the the hagane is either exposed all along the circumference of the blade, or else very nearly. Is this wrong? How?

My understanding of warikomi (thrusting in-between) was that it differs from san mai only very technically and that warikomi does not include suminagashi (ink pattern), but san mai is more generic and does. Is this wrong? How?

And, that hon warikomi was that it differed slightly from warikomi in that the jigane covers everything that doesn't sharpened; i.e., spine, top of the point, etc. Is this wrong? How?

BDL

[buzzard767]

Originally Posted by boar_d_laze

Buzz,

I'm not sure what you mean. I thought I understood Japanese blade construction, but you've got me doubting myself.

My understanding of san mai (three layer) construction was that while the steel for the hagane may start as a pied of bar-stock, it is eventually forged (or rolled), flatter and wider and extends through the entire knife. Is this wrong? How?

Further, my understanding of san mai (three layers) was that after forging (or rolling and stamping and forge-welding), the blade is ground to shape. When the grinding cuts through the the hagane is either exposed all along the circumference of the blade, or else very nearly. Is this wrong? How?

My understanding of warikomi (thrusting in-between) was that it differs from san mai only very technically and that warikomi does not include suminagashi (ink pattern), but san mai is more generic and does. Is this wrong? How?

And, that hon warikomi was that it differed slightly from warikomi in that the jigane covers everything that doesn't sharpened; i.e., spine, top of the point, etc. Is this wrong? How?

BDL

I believe you are correct on all counts. Watch the following videos of Moritaka Hamono inserting AS into the jigane. Notice that it does not penetrate deeply. I don't think any amount of hammering will result in more than half of the total blade width containing the hagane.

YouTube - Moritaka embedding aogami super #1
YouTube - Moritaka embedding aogami super #2
YouTube - Moritaka embedding aogami super #3

I don't know if this is standard procedure for other companies or not. I do know this though, a professional sharpener who specializes in Japanese knives was working on a Moritaka and the hagane actually came loose rendering the knife useless. I own three Moritakas and do/did have an issue with one of them, a 220 x 110 Chuckabocho. The edge had been ground so thin it was not really sharpenable and I sent the knife back to Japan. They told me the knife will be okay but might take as long as year for the steel to totally harden. Hmmmm? I guess you have to age a Moritaka like fine wines and cigars. LOL They're the experts so this fall I'll put it to the stones and see what happens.

By the way, my other two Moritakas are perfect.

[jester king]

to tell you the truth BLD its really the only type of knife i've had, recently i've played with my mom's chef's knife and i like it much better accually, also i see people using these all the time, is it as good as stones?

Calphalon Knives Katana 10-in. Diamond Sharpening Steel - Calphalon Knives Sharpening Steels