[blt]

Hello All -

I have spent the past week reading and creating a link archve of all the possible knives I should purchase. The only knife I have ever owned is a Global G-2 8'' Chef's knife and I have really grown to hate the handle. My hand actually blistered using a pinch grip this past Turkey Day. Long story short, i am in the market for some new knives and I would love to stay with Japanese knives. I would like to keep the total under $350 for all three knives if at all possible maxing out at $500.

Here is what I think I am going with so far based on prior posts:

Bread Knife - Mac Bread Knife
Chef's Knife - Torn between Hiromoto- Misono, or Masamoto ( I decided against the MAC Pro because of aesthetics)
Pairing knife - No Idea

Thanks for all the help and looking forward to your responses. If possible please provide links to where I should purchase your recommnedations. Thanks!

[ChopHausMatt]

Originally Posted by blt

Hello All -

I have spent the past week reading and creating a link archve of all the possible knives I should purchase. The only knife I have ever owned is a Global G-2 8'' Chef's knife and I have really grown to hate the handle. My hand actually blistered using a pinch grip this past Turkey Day. Long story short, i am in the market for some new knives and I would love to stay with Japanese knives. I would like to keep the total under $350 for all three knives if at all possible maxing out at $500.

Here is what I think I am going with so far based on prior posts:

Bread Knife - Mac Bread Knife
Chef's Knife - Torn between Hiromoto- Misono, or Masamoto ( I decided against the MAC Pro because of aesthetics)
Pairing knife - No Idea

Thanks for all the help and looking forward to your responses. If possible please provide links to where I should purchase your recommnedations. Thanks!

Hey blt,

I am not sure exactly what price range you want to keep yourself in, but in terms of quality, price, and durability, I don't think you can go wrong with Dexter Russell knives. They have paring knives, chef's knives, and bread / sandwich knives that really do the job well and are not too expensive. In my experience, with proper care, they can last a very long time too. I see you mentioned Global knives, which are much more expensive, but you also mentioned that the handle was uncomfortable. The "Sofgrip" and "V-lo" product lines that Dexter offers are really comfortable to hold and use.

Hopefully I was some help!

[boar_d_laze]

You haven't told us which Hiromoto, Masamoto and Misono lines you're thinking about. Let me add another to your list and that's Sakai Takayuki Grand Cheff.

I owened a few Hiromoto AS and recommend them highly. They're not perfect, but they're very good knives. The handles are slender and perhaps a bit on the small side. If you have large hands and a less than perfect grip, you might want to rethink them. On the other hand, the Hiromoto handle is a LOT more forgiving than the Global handle.

Hiromoto makes a slightly less expensive, all stainless, "G" series. The G is G-3 which is identical to VG-10. The steel gets very sharp, one of the first stainless steels to do so, and has no real weaknesses. An excellent knife at a good price.

If I were buying new knives tomorrow, Masamoto HC (a carbon steel) would be on the top of my list. If I were buying stainless, Masamoto VG however, would not. The blade is just a little bit whippy for my taste. That said, Masamoto along with K-Sabatier and Thiers-Issard have the best feel in the business (MAC very high in the next tier). FWIW, I'd probably buy Tadatsuna.

Misono UX-10 are extremely nice if you can get past the styling (I like it), but they're a little expensive for the steel they're using. A very comfortable, stylish knife. Gets very sharp.

If you've been following the forum you know I've recommended MAC knives to quite a few people. If the thought that the stupid silk screening wears off (quickly) isn't enough to rethink -- well it isn't. It's important to like the way your primary knife looks.

Sakai Takayuki Grand Cheff are made with blade steel very similar to the Misono UX-10, but with ergonomics similar to MAC -- which is to say very good ergonomics indeed. The steel (AEB-L) is hardened to around 58-59, skoshi softer than the Misono; but plenty hard. These would be way up my list for stainless, especially if I were watching my budget. They ship sharp and require very little work to make very sharp.

You might also want to look at the Togiharu line up at Korin. They seem to be built along much the same lines as non-UX-10 Misonos but at a slightly more favorable price.

My knife set is built in part around the size relationship between my "petty" and my chef's knife. A petty looks like a paring (note: no "i" between the "a" and "r") knife but is a little longer. Sometimes you seem them sold as sandwich or utility knives. A knife in the 5" - 6" range is extremely useful for almost everything you wouldn't use your chef's knife. Which is a segue to:

Get a longer chef's knife than 8". You'll find the extra length will make a lot of things go better. Among other things, you'll work faster and go longer between sharpnenings. The petty will take over any fine point work the longer chef's knife can't do. Also, if you're looking at Japanese knives on e-tailers you'll see that they offer petties but not many paring knives.

The petty will see a LOT of use. My suggestion is that you buy the same type as your gyuto. Matching isn't important, but whatever virtues you see in the gyuto you'll want in the petty. So, why not? And if you need a short knife for tourne, peeling small veg, whatever, add one or two $10 Forschners as needed.

Finally, please consider how you're planning to sharpen your new knives. The description of the Thanksgiving Global raises the strong suspicion that the knife is dull and forcing you to grip it too tightly. I'm not suggesting "sharpen it and try it again" because nearly everyone suffers grip problems from a Global eventually. Sharpen it, keep it as a small chef's knife, AND buy some really good ones. By the way, if you round over the Global's spine near the handle, you'll make the knife a lot more comfortable.

Lots to think about, eh?
BDL

[buzzard767]

Originally Posted by blt

Bread Knife - Mac Bread Knife
Chef's Knife - Torn between Hiromoto- Misono, or Masamoto ( I decided against the MAC Pro because of aesthetics)
Pairing knife - No Idea

Thanks for all the help and looking forward to your responses. If possible please provide links to where I should purchase your recommnedations. Thanks!

Bread knife - Korin - Fine Japanese Tableware and Chef Knives
Chef's knife - Hiromoto 240 AS
Pairing knife - Shun Classic 3.5"

These three will please you greatly.

[blt]

Originally Posted by boar_d_laze

You haven't told us which Hiromoto, Masamoto and Misono lines you're thinking about. Let me add another to your list and that's Sakai Takayuki Grand Cheff.

I owened a few Hiromoto AS and recommend them highly. They're not perfect, but they're very good knives. The handles are slender and perhaps a bit on the small side. If you have large hands and a less than perfect grip, you might want to rethink them. On the other hand, the Hiromoto handle is a LOT more forgiving than the Global handle.

Hiromoto makes a slightly less expensive, all stainless, "G" series. The G is G-3 which is identical to VG-10. The steel gets very sharp, one of the first stainless steels to do so, and has no real weaknesses. An excellent knife at a good price.

If I were buying new knives tomorrow, Masamoto HC (a carbon steel) would be on the top of my list. If I were buying stainless, Masamoto VG however, would not. The blade is just a little bit whippy for my taste. That said, Masamoto along with K-Sabatier and Thiers-Issard have the best feel in the business (MAC very high in the next tier). FWIW, I'd probably buy Tadatsuna.

Misono UX-10 are extremely nice if you can get past the styling (I like it), but they're a little expensive for the steel they're using. A very comfortable, stylish knife. Gets very sharp.

If you've been following the forum you know I've recommended MAC knives to quite a few people. If the thought that the stupid silk screening wears off (quickly) isn't enough to rethink -- well it isn't. It's important to like the way your primary knife looks.

Sakai Takayuki Grand Cheff are made with blade steel very similar to the Misono UX-10, but with ergonomics similar to MAC -- which is to say very good ergonomics indeed. The steel (AEB-L) is hardened to around 58-59, skoshi softer than the Misono; but plenty hard. These would be way up my list for stainless, especially if I were watching my budget. They ship sharp and require very little work to make very sharp.

You might also want to look at the Togiharu line up at Korin. They seem to be built along much the same lines as non-UX-10 Misonos but at a slightly more favorable price.

My knife set is built in part around the size relationship between my "petty" and my chef's knife. A petty looks like a paring (note: no "i" between the "a" and "r") knife but is a little longer. Sometimes you seem them sold as sandwich or utility knives. A knife in the 5" - 6" range is extremely useful for almost everything you wouldn't use your chef's knife. Which is a segue to:

Get a longer chef's knife than 8". You'll find the extra length will make a lot of things go better. Among other things, you'll work faster and go longer between sharpnenings. The petty will take over any fine point work the longer chef's knife can't do. Also, if you're looking at Japanese knives on e-tailers you'll see that they offer petties but not many paring knives.

The petty will see a LOT of use. My suggestion is that you buy the same type as your gyuto. Matching isn't important, but whatever virtues you see in the gyuto you'll want in the petty. So, why not? And if you need a short knife for tourne, peeling small veg, whatever, add one or two $10 Forschners as needed.

Finally, please consider how you're planning to sharpen your new knives. The description of the Thanksgiving Global raises the strong suspicion that the knife is dull and forcing you to grip it too tightly. I'm not suggesting "sharpen it and try it again" because nearly everyone suffers grip problems from a Global eventually. Sharpen it, keep it as a small chef's knife, AND buy some really good ones. By the way, if you round over the Global's spine near the handle, you'll make the knife a lot more comfortable.

Lots to think about, eh?
BDL

Darn....The irony of additional information and the beauty of ignorance collide...I have no idea wheter I should be looking at Carbon Steel vs Stainless either...
I was really looking at the Hiromoto 240 AS or the Masamato VG series but will defintely take a look at your recommendations. I like the look of the black handles

Where can I even purchase the Sakai Takayuki Grand Chef? It's not on JCK and most sites only seem to have the slicer/carving knife.

As for the Togiharu, which line do you recommend? I seem Virgin Stainless Steel everywhere...

[buzzard767]

Originally Posted by blt

Where can I even purchase the Sakai Takayuki Grand Chef? It's not on JCK and most sites only seem to have the slicer/carving knife.

Look at them here. Be sure and check out the Japanese wa handle page as well.

Order here.

I have two Grand Cheffs and another on order. You can't beat this steel for a home kitchen.

Buzz

[boar_d_laze]

I wrote a great post covering all questions and lost it to server error. Oh well.

Let's see:

To flesh out Buzz's post a little -- choose your knives from the Sakai Takayuki catalog, and write down the catalog numbers. Then call (or email) Seito Trading, talk to Pam, make sure everything is copacetic; and finally give her the numbers.

Carbon. You're either the type or you aren't. If you have very good work habits, it doesn't involve much extra care at all. If you're a procrastinator, you'll hate it, don't buy it. Somewhere in between? Best edge, easiest to maintain, easiest to learn to sharpen -- the cost is not only some extra care, but the discipline to do it immediately, rather than tomorrow morning. Ah domani.

What else?

The Togiharu. The line for you is their top stainless, G-1. I believe the steel used is G3, which is the same as VG-10, and is an excellent steel. The handles are roomy, the knives are well made with fair attention to detail. The level of F&F is not as high as a Masamoto or top of the line Misono. Maybe a little less than a Hiromoto for that matter, but a more forgiving handle.

The "Virgin" is carbon. If you're interested in carbon, we'll talk. If you're the type. carbon kicks -- except in a catering environment or the type of pro kitchen where everyone's grabbing everyone else's knife. Then it's ****.

Everything else being equal, in the wild wacky world of better stainless, the Misono UX-10 at its Korin sale price is pretty attractive.

Hope this helps,
BDL

[blt]

I would say that I am pretty tidy and would prefer carbon if all it really means is staying on top of cleaning it. Let's talk carbon!

[buzzard767]

Originally Posted by blt

I would say that I am pretty tidy and would prefer carbon if all it really means is staying on top of cleaning it. Let's talk carbon!

Back to the Hiromoto AS. It's a great blade, easy to take care of, gets really sharp easily, and stay that way for a loooong time.

Edit: For less than $140 delivered it is an absolute bargain as well as being a high performer.

Buzz

[CookingAngry]

Consider buying some sharpening stones my friend. With your budget you could easily slide two stones (or a combo) and a honing rod in there.

The Hiromoto AS that Buzz sugguests has a carbon edge clad in stainless. The edge steel is supposed to be among the absolute best so he's right, at that price it's almost a no brainer. I was very close to buying it a while back but went another direction. It should keep an edge very well but you have to wipe it down when you're cutting acidic foods or corrosion will eat away at the sharp. Only reservation with this knife is that for a beginner sharpener it's a little on the hard side.

Good luck making your choice.

[blt]

Originally Posted by buzzard767

Back to the Hiromoto AS. It's a great blade, easy to take care of, gets really sharp easily, and stay that way for a loooong time.

Edit: For less than $140 delivered it is an absolute bargain as well as being a high performer.

Buzz

Hiromoto AS sounds like the best choice in carbon. Sounds like the 270mm would be best. I do have smaller hands since I have been using the Global for two years I would imagine it would be a improvment. Where you recommned that i purchase it for $140 delivered? JCK has it for $148.31.

What is your take on carbon BDL?

And what size petty should I get?

Last question hopefully: What should i get in the way of sharpening tools...I just opened up pandoras box didnt I...

[buzzard767]

Originally Posted by blt

Hiromoto AS sounds like the best choice in carbon. Sounds like the 270mm would be best. I do have smaller hands since I have been using the Global for two years I would imagine it would be a improvment. Where you recommned that i purchase it for $140 delivered? JCK has it for $148.31.

What is your take on carbon BDL?

And what size petty should I get?

Last question hopefully: What should i get in the way of sharpening tools...I just opened up pandoras box didnt I...

I gave you the price on a 240mm from JCK + $7 shipping.

I bought a 240 a year and a half ago and can't say enough about it. I gave it to my daughter and hubby for Christmas after having it rehandled. I may have posted it on this site before but here it is.



Don't worry about sharpening Hitachi Aogami Blue Super Steel. Yes, it's very hard, but it's carbon and sharpens quickly. All you need to start is (my personal recommendation of course) Shapton 1k and 2k GlassStones, and a ceramic steel. Only about 1% of knives come with a descent edge although as I recall, the Hiro was fairly good. Anyway, put the knife on the GlassStones and grind on the original bevels. You don't want to change anything, rather, remove any micro chips that were probably present when you opened the box. Once the burr is removed and you're happy with the edge, start having fun with it. Use the ceramic steel to touch up the edge when you first notice any kind of performance degradation. In a home cooking situation, even if the knife is used daily, the steel should keep it going for months before you need to bring out the stones again.

Now, if you want a REALLY sharp edge, get a leather strop and charge it with .5 micron chromium oxide. I can promise you that you will treat the edge the same as if it were a razor blade. In fact, you can use the strop instead of the ceramic steel for awhile.

Buzz

[buzzard767]

Petty knives: I like mine at or near 150mm but it's just a personal preference I guess. I have several and my go to is a Takayuki Grand Cheff. I paid $98 plus a few bucks shipping when I ordered from Seito last summer.

[boar_d_laze]

My take on carbon is that it's the way to go if you have the workhabits and you're not in a situation where you have to worry about what happens to your knives if you walk away for a few minutes -- catering particularly, where everyone does everyone's job.

I like the Hiromoto AS quite a bit. It's a great knife with a few very minor issues. I had a few and ended up passing them on to my son and keeping my antique Sabatiers. Part of the reason the Sabatiers stayed was emotional. The Hiromotos certainly held an edge longer and were slightly higher performance in a few other respects as well. But the Sabatiers were more comfortable.

The Hiromoto handle is a bit on the small and slender side for big hands. If you have a good pinch grip, with a soft hand, you won't find it an issue. Still, I found the single steel knife more responsive. At the end of the day, it turns out I'm not a fan of most cladded knives. You may feel differently. We had a thread going on the subject at Fred's Cutlery Fourm and responses were all over the map.

My western handled carbon hierarchy is:
1. Masmaoto HC. I purely love all Masamoto knives for ergonomics, fit and finish you name it. HC is their best western handled line. Made with, I think, a particularly pure Takefu (Japanese steel company making high performance knife steels including VG-10) carbon, V2C. If I were buying new knives tomorrow, I'd buy all Masamato HC.
2. Masamoto CT, very closely followed by;
3. Misono Sweden, Kikuichi Elite, K-Sabatier au carbone, Thiers-Issard ****Elephant Sabatier carbon, and Nogent (Thiers-Issard Sabatier). The Japanese carbons certainly stay sharp a lot longer, and have thinner blades which is a good thing most of the time. The French knives, amazingly, get just as sharp. They are also a little heavier, stiffer, take abuse better, and feel more solid in the hand. They are equally agile and supply similar levels of feedback. All of the French handles, while different from one another in important ways, are very comfortable -- slightly better than either of the Japanese. There's something about that old fashioned French extended ferrule between the handle and bolster which makes the knife work. The Misono Sweden is the good looks champ -- the longer knives have a dragon engraved on them, while some of the medium sized knives have a flower. Very cool. F&F might or might not be an issue with any of them. My feeling is that you're less likely to run into an issue with the Japanese brands. But, none of them are Masamotos, or for that matter, Wusthof.
4. Togiharu carbon (on reputation), seem to be slightly less deluxe versions of the Masamoto CT and Kikuichi Elite; and
5. The bargain Japanese carbons, like Fujiwara FKH, of which there are several other brands. You give up a lot of fit and finish and ergonomics, but get nearly all the performance. Very low dollars, and best bang for buck by far. Good knives to learn to sharpen on, and pick up some technique as well without breaking the bank. You will grow out of them pretty quickly though.

By the way, all of these knives, respond very well to honing on a "steel," which will keep you away from the stones for quite some time.

Think of your petty as the support system for your chef's knife. You want something large enough to use as an intermediate utility, and something small enough to use for paring. I use a 6" Nogent slicer. You'd probably be more comfortable with something in the 4" - 5" range -- but it depends on you. A longer knife won't make you more manly or anything. Length is a little more versatile in some ways, but harder to control. Your petty is the knife you want for absolute tip control so don't push it out of your comfort zone. It's the knife you'll use for boning and jointing chicken, cutting tomato roses, and all sorts of thing. Comfort first.

If you do special things that call for a small paring knife, 3-1/2" or less, I suggest getting another knife. My wife insists on a small knife in the block, and she likes the Forschner sheep's foot. Excellent shape if you rest your thumb along the spine while you peel fruit. They last a few years before I sharpen them to oblivion, but they're only around $15 (Rosewood) or $7.50 (Fibrox) to begin with; so no big deal. Buzz and I have a friend who swears by the little Forschner serrated knives (about $3.50 each). Buy a box, use 'til dull, and toss. Make sense. The little Nogents are more expensive, but they're a trip. You can't buy a small knife with a better handle (2-1/2" knife with a full size handle!!!), a piece of history, and they get sharp very easily. Misono Sweden has a dandy little 8cm parer as well.

Just a few thoughts,
BDL

[adamlovescarbon]

Hi boar d laze
Im new to the forum, but i stumbled into a forum where you were discussing different knives sold on korin.com
you seem to know what your talking about, so i wanted to ask your opinion on somthing.
I own a misono swedish carbon gyuto 240mm and Its the best investment ive ever made.
I am curently interested in buying the 300mm version, as i need a high quality larger sized knife. Im not interested in brands other than misono, as I trust them whole heartedly.
my Question:
How in your opinion does the 300mm ux10s sharpness and edge retention compare to that of the 300mm swedish carbon. (In my experience, when my swedish carbon is dull, its not nearly as dull as my coworker's ux10. This could be due to the thickness of the blade?)
also the sharpening of my sweedish carbon is somthing of a dream. A few swipes on the stones and I could shave with it if i wanted to. With the ux10 there seems to be a bit more work to sharpen it (ie. time/pressure)
please reply,
thx,
Adam