[The Tourist]

As you know, we have probably hijacked several threads on our debates. And I'm sorry for this.

Chris came up with the idea of starting a new debate thread. And it's a good answer.

I have started this thread so it make take any direction it needs to go for the polite discussion on any phase of knives you wish to impart. I think it's going to be fun.

[ChrisLehrer]

Okay, I'll shift this over here.

Originally Posted by The Tourist

My opinion is to get him [the newbie] a better knife, teach him to steel, never let him push a knife until it is totally dull and instruct him on how to wash and maintain it.

That's pretty much what I meant. And a "better knife" is usually a few hundred bucks.

I'm with you until the last line, Chico.

A "better knife" is one that will hold a serviceable edge throughout the relevant type of shift. And it's one in the hands of and under the eyes of people who know what a serviceable edge is and how to maintain it.

For example, a Forschner or Dexter Russell.

Those knives are not garbage, and they don't cost "a few hundred bucks." They're perfectly serviceable for the vast majority of tasks.

That's why I dislike Shun and Global, and why I really intensely dislike Wusthof and Henckels: they sell products at vastly inflated costs by convincing the unsuspecting and uninformed that they are ultra-premium wonderfulness. I know of nothing that makes a Wusthof or Henckels superior to a Forschner, but it costs a lot more. I know of a lot of things that make a Shun or Global inferior to several major Sakai-based brands that cost a good deal less. But a huge number of people, pros and home cooks, consider it a known fact that Wusthof, Henckels, Shun, and Global rule the knife world and are the best of the best.

As to the knives that cost "a few hundred bucks," I think you're imposing an excessively large gap between bad knives badly maintained and badly used and good knives well maintained and well used. Anyone who makes a jump to high-end honyaki knives, in my opinion, fits one of the following categories: (a) collector with money, (b) idiot, (c) frightening expert who knows far more about knives, sharpening, and cutting than you and I put together.

The best cutters I know, several of whom fit into category (c), use honyaki blades sparingly or not at all. They generally buy knives that hang in the $250 region, give or take. And in the gap between these guys and the "newbies" you describe who don't know dull from sort of sharp, who don't know the first thing about knife maintenance -- in that gap lies almost every professional chef in the world.

[phatch]

I've spent hundreds of dollars on individual knives--which is why I know The Tourist from other knife forums. And most of them I've sold and prefer simpler designs and steels.

But in the kitchen I use a Forschner. It just works and is highly affordable. Sure I appreciate exotic steels like any other knife knut but they don't add to my cooking experience.

Appropriately, it's like a Swiss Army Knife. There are fancier tools out there with better steels, ergonomics and tougher. But a real SAK is a fine tool in its own right and will perform when used appropriately and treated with care and respect.

And Victorinox makes Forschner and SAKs.

Phil

[The Tourist]

I do try to stay with the overall theme of the forum, that is keeping the idea of "professional" in mind.

I see no problem with taking care of a home food hobbyist (BTW, I don't care for the epithet 'foodie') and getting the best edges on their Pampered Chef roll.

However, I do know a chef for a restaurant, and he has a side catering retirement business. Hours of cutting, time constraints, etc., and I sold him a deba--with an edge I might put on a sashimi knife.

Now before I further castigate myself as a heretic, I do believe that the client is always right. I just gave him better options. He's a big guy, a heavy knife is not a handicap and he will still have to make crisp slices. Win/win.

I would also provide a similar service for a woman who is considered "the best 'chef' in her neighborhood." There is still a 'presentation' factor. Obviously there will be few if any Hattori knives, but she might buy better quality at some point.

BTW, I still sharpen all makes and models.

[ChrisLehrer]

Originally Posted by The Tourist

However, I do know a chef for a restaurant, and he has a side catering retirement business. Hours of cutting, time constraints, etc., and I sold him a deba--with an edge I might put on a sashimi knife.

Now before I further castigate myself as a heretic, I do believe that the client is always right. I just gave him better options. He's a big guy, a heavy knife is not a handicap and he will still have to make crisp slices. Win/win.

I can't figure out what you're saying here. On the one hand, "the client is always right" suggests that you told him not to buy the knife. On the other hand, "I just gave him better options" suggests that you thought this knife a better choice than what he had. What would he want a deba for, of all knives?

[foodpump]

For the heck of it, lets swing this in another direction:

The evilist evil of all the evils...



No, not class action lawyers, not even politicians. No I'm talking about....


Advertising.


It's why one brand of knife is "better" than others, why a Camero is better than a 'Stang (or is it vice versa? )

Shun, Global, Wusthof (a.k.a. "Driezack" in Deutschland) Henkels, various hoity-toity Japanese brands, they all promote heavily in cooking magazines and heavily in various cooking shows. And if it's expensive, well then it's gotta be good, right?

C'mon, face it, If one of them started to put laser guides to shine down the blade ensuring the user a precise cut, all the others would follow suit and they'd all have an excuse to charge even more. Maybe treat the blade with liquid helium and lock it into a diamond pyramid for 99 days to ensure maximum sharpness for the rest of it's natural life.

Look, I have about 7 Chef's style knives in my kit. Most of them are Victorinox. They get dull, I use a steel, when that doesn't work, I put them aside, and when I have 3 or 4 that need sharpening, I crack open a cold beverage and go to work on the water stones in the garage at home.

What's my minimum demand of a sharp edge?

That I can slice a taut-skined ripe tomato with no sawing or pushing.

For 22 years now I haven't been let down.

Do I slice fugu or raw ocotpus? No.

Last week I must have sliced up 50 lbs of fruit for fruit platters: Pineapples, melons, kiwis, papayas. Each slice clean and crisp. Today it was cutting butter ganache. To do this I heat up the knife blade either in the oven or with a blow torch, and cut down through the slab, melting through the chocolate layer, crunch down through the toasted nuts, and make 144 even squares. With a $5 Ikea paring knife (gasp) I plunk down an aluminum cake pan bottom on a sheet of parchment paper and trace around it, cutting out disc after disc of parchemt paper liners for sponge. True, if I ever drop the knife It'd shatter like a file. Good thing it's only 5 bucks, 'cause one of the girls will use it to chip ice out of the chest freezer next week. About 20 years go I learned never to bring my "good knives" to work.

Cutting boards?

Nylon. When they get dirty I toss them in the d/w. No 3-step sanitizing process here, the high-temp d/w does that for me. I want peace of mind and no screw ups. When they get scarred, I run them through my trusty Delta 12" thickness planer at home. Two brand spanking new surfaces devoid of any defects and a good 3/16" thinner. Amen. Tourist, this is a service you should offer your clients. Charge them, but offer it.

I cut just-baked quiche and hard dry biscotti loaves with.... A $9.99 B&D electric knife. Sacrilage, I know. It's also the best tool for the job. I can push the slices together and you can't even see the cuts.

I have a business to run, no time to obsses with sharp edges, I'd rather obsess with new whoelsale accounts.

A knife is just a hunk of steel with a sharp edge. The magic is in the user hands.

[Phaedrus]

A lot of things go into making a "good" knife. We all like to say the edge is the main thing, and it is, but it's not the only thing. For an example, let's just take a very good blade purchased without a handle, just the bare rat-tail tang. IIRC one of the really well regarded makers will knock off $5 for buying it that way (I should remember the one but I can't- Watanabe, perhaps?).

Okay, great blade, but not so easy to use with no handle. What should be do? Could just rip a 2x4, drill it and glue the blade in! But that wouldn't be very ergonomic, nor very sanitary. It would be impossible to sanitize, hard to hold and the balance would be terrible.

So we give it a 'real' handle- but what do we choose? Again, this is just a thought experiment...in real life the type of knife would help dictate the handle. It would fairly unusual to affix Western style scales to a yanagiba, for instance. But if we have a gyuto we could use a Wa handle of Ho or magnolia, we could use linen micarta, etc.

In a round-about way that brings me to the Forschners. While the Fibrox handle is functional few people would say it's elegant. The grip can be iffy when it's wet or a bit greasy (like fat from a rib roast). Compare that to a Wusthof- it balances better and handles better. The latter is also a bit slippery when wet but overall I find they fit the hand a little better. These things are not trifling matters to me; ergonomics are a very important part of a knife's usability.

I think Forschner makes good knives if you simply can't spend more than $35 on a single peice, but I'd rather have a Messermeister. Or better yet, a Tojiro or Shun (or of course something better still).

For all the talk about Shun being 'overpriced' so far no one has ever given me an example of something substantially better for the same or cheaper price. And I don't mean something you simply prefer that costs $10 less- I'm talking something that's demonstrably better. Ideally it would also rival or exceed the Kershaw offerings in the area of F'n'F and appearance, too. Sure, maybe if you live in Japan there are other choices but I can't think of a lot that are easily available here. Anyone who frequents this site probably already knows about and/or shops at JCK, Korin or ChefKnivesToGo. They have many great knives, but even allowing that I haven't tried some of the potential contenders many of them don't meet the price criterion. For example, Tojiro and Toghihura, two of the more recommended knives, cost virtually the same amount as the Shun. I got a really great deal on a Kanetsune that's definitely in the same class as the Shun but they've been out of stock for over a year, and all the other vendors are selling them for about what a Shun brings, too. JCK has some branded for them that look to be pretty competitive but not much cheaper than a Classic, generally about the same price. I have some Hattori's, and they're not a big step up from the Shun Classic yet they're even more expensive. At the cheaper end there are some knives made from a bit more garden-variety types of stainless as well as carbon, but I don't think the latter is an option for everyone.

Unless you guys are all buying your Shuns at SLT...that could explain the price disparity!

[Phaedrus]

FWIW, I will concede on thing: for the chef's knife and that knife only you would probably have a valid point. The Shun simply has more belly that it should have, so any knife with a "true" gyuto/French shape would be preferable, all else being equal. But that doesn't apply to their other blade shapes. Their bread knife, for instance, is extremely nice.

[kokopuffs]

I prefer my older manufactured Sabatiers better than the old Forschners presently in my knife block. And as to knife threads, I feel that no other topic here at this forum has generated as much debate as the topic on knives. And I'm right, YOU'RE ALL WRONG!

[DuckFat]

" I know of nothing that makes a Wusthof or Henckels superior to a Forschner"


I Don't know how others shop but when I buy a work knife I'm looking for a knife that balances well and feels good in my hand and will perform well. While I often suggest Forschner to cooks for many reasons I can think of several things that make Wusthof superior to Forschner. Just hold a Forschner fibrox in one hand and a Wusthof classic in the other. The weight, build quality etc. are immediately noticeable. The Wusthof is about $100 and the Forschner about $30. The Forschner is equal to Dexter, Sani-safe or most house knives. They work and they represent a great value but I definitely would rather work with a Wusthof in most cases. To me $70 is not a big difference in a work knife. To a new cook it often is.





"For all the talk about Shun being 'overpriced' so far no one has ever given me an example of something substantially better for the same or cheaper price."


I guess that really depends on what Shun line you want to compare. The Bob Kramer bread knife just might be a dandy but at $300+ it should be. The vast majority that buy Shuns are not buying their classic line but one of the several other lines. A lot of times that purchase is based on looks not performance. A Shun Classic bread knife is about $115. IMO the Mac is better as is the Viking that is made by Guede. Both are less expensive. Beyond that I don't assign caveats when I'm shopping like brand X Has to be "substantially better". If another brand is even a little bit better or has a better feel for the same price I'll go with that product. If it costs less then for most that's even better.

[Andydude]

Do you folks actually have a shared lexicon when it comes to terms like "better"?

How are you gauging that? Is there a general score that you attribute to a knife based on the metal and construction quality?

[kokopuffs]

To me it's all in the quality of the metal and that's why I prefer a knife made with older carbon steel that I think is commonly called 1095 carbon. And the debate continues on and on and on...

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by ChrisLehrer

I can't figure out what you're saying here. On the one hand, "the client is always right" suggests that you told him not to buy the knife. On the other hand, "I just gave him better options" suggests that you thought this knife a better choice than what he had. What would he want a deba for, of all knives?

Actually, there's a longer back story. The deba was a "test mule" when I worked inside a Gander Mountain outlet. When the chef's son came in to have some sporting knives resharpened, this son saw the deba and asked about it. He liked the heft and told his dad.

I loaned him the knife and forgot about the issue.

The son returned, had the edge touched up and they bought the knife for the catering business. At no time did I make any sort of a sales pitch to the dad. I still believe the father liked the added weight.

However, the fact remains that a deba was sold, serviced and used as kind of a big boy's general purpose chef's knife. That's what the client wanted and obtained.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by foodpump

I run them through my trusty Delta 12" thickness planer at home. Two brand spanking new surfaces devoid of any defects and a good 3/16" thinner. Amen. Tourist, this is a service you should offer your clients.

Alas, I do not own such a planer. As a boy I worked in the carpenters' shop at The Master Lock Company for one summer season. Not only does the ability to work with wood skip a generation, but so does the desire.

Besides, I'm a tinker, one of the clown princes of the serivice industry. We do a song, a dance, tell a few good yarns, a touch of eastern mysticism and a pinch of voodoo, and then we over-charge them.

It covers the cost of the new boards.

[boar_d_laze]

Originally Posted by kokopuffs

To me it's all in the quality of the metal and that's why I prefer a knife made with older carbon steel that I think is commonly called 1095 carbon. And the debate continues on and on and on...

By way of information only, meaning no criticism, and not taking sides, old Sabs are a lot closer to 1070 than 1095. FWIW, 1050 is where "high carbon" starts.

Old Sabs are splendid knives, which as it happens comprise the overwhelming majority of my knife kit. However, in terms of weight, and edge holding they lag behind "better" Japaense knives.

BDL