[Algavinn]

Thanks BDL, that does help quite a bit. It is important to me to handle them in person before there is no turning back, but this has been in part because of things like the Shun feeling very comfortable and the global feeling very off, both in grip and balance (whether this would actually matter or not) and having a general dislike of the heft of German knives. This looks, however, like if I can expect to get used to most Japanese knives that aren't specifically unusual that I can probably deal with purchasing one without handling it first, I just don't want any unpleasant surprises like I may have gotten if I'd purchased a global online.

If that doesn't sound like complete nonsense to you, at least. If I don't have to expect there being a chance of not being comfortable with the knife I purchase then I will focus more on the quality of the knife and go from there.

Will start looking through those, and try to find some specific info on them, but I need to pass out again (still recovering from surgery, has me napping every hour or so).


Thanks all for the great info and suggestions.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by Algavinn

but I need to pass out again (still recovering from surgery, has me napping every hour or so).

My thoughts and prayers to you. My wife had some surgery that was dicey. She's fine now, we dodged a bullet. But her resistance is down.

Take good care of yourself.

[Algavinn]

Much appreciated BDL, but worry not. I'm young and it was just a minor oral surgery, it just has me pretty wiped out sleeping through most of the day. If I'm up more than an hour or so it makes my ears and eyes feel as if I've been using them nonstop for 30 hours. Funny thing is the day I came home I was feeling fine, went to a party.

Glad to hear about your wife though. I wish her well in getting back to health.


I am however, getting back in bed before being able to say anything particularly constructive. I have somewhere I need to go tonight, so need to rest up for it.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by Algavinn

This looks, however, like if I can expect to get used to most Japanese knives that aren't specifically unusual that I can probably deal with purchasing one without handling it first.

I'd like to relate a humorous comment my friends and I make on this topic.

After reading some Japanese sword and polishing history books, we glean sharpening ideas, procedures and tools from the literature. Something as simple as nagura and water makes our edges sharper. In many cases we are baffled.

Playfully, we comment, "After 1,000 years of Japanese cutlery expertise, it looks like they finally got it right..."

To many newbs seeing real-deal Japanese cutlery for the first time they comment on how odd the stuff looks. No question, a katana does not look like a European saber, a nakiri has a blunt nose, the blade blanks look like metal plywood, the handles are faceted, the bevels are like mirrors, etc.

But in the hands of a pro, a properly prepared gyuto will slice through a rolled grass mat like dicing a stalk of celery.

Many of my clients have gone "all Japanese." One client who pours concrete for a living bought an Emerson, did a little reading on the "odd ball" shape, then acquired a Japanese petite knife--made the mistake of letting his mother use it--and now he makes my house payments.

He has a yellow ribbon on his pick-up truck, but if I want to sell him a knife, it had better be Japanese.

Those who polish Japanese edges refer to the craft as "the curse." You cannot sharpen those edges without outright awe and respect. Once exposed, you love the edge, the knife, the history, and the performance.

I usually tell a newb who is thinking of a upgrade to buy a good quality gyuto and a smaller Yaxell Ran paring knife. The newb can easily make this transaction for under 200 dollars. On many knives I offer "life sharp."

After all these years, and numerous clients, I have never taken one of these knives back or replaced them with a Euro knife. In many cases the client sits at my kitchen table when I sharpen his knife, enjoys a little cappuccino, and then obliquely asks if I have other knives for sale. Any Japanese knives.

Gee, after 1,000 years...

[Algavinn]

There really is a special allure to Japanese blades and their style. I have actually always been a knife and sword enthusiast, and do own a few Samurai blades.

I know many of the responses you guys give have been said repeatedly on other threads, and forums so I have searched through a lot of that and have gained a lot of info, but feel compelled to ask explicitly. Are you, BDL, and any others, able to describe some of those Japanese knives you listed, what the attributes and qualities of them are that may motivate me to buy one over the other, including how easy/hard maintaining them is, and if any of them permit steels (and what type) to hone them.

My sharpening stone is in the mail, and I have a set of knives crying out to be sharpened, and in a couple of weeks after my next paycheck I will be in the position to buy my new gyuto if I have found one I believe will be right for me.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by Algavinn

There really is a special allure to Japanese blades and their style.

On that we agree. I truly believe that Japanese knives achieve that allure for the same reason that people like the Bat-Mobile.

"Things that are dangerous are exciting. And things that are truly fun must be dangerous."

Yikes, you can get a kitchen knife at K-Mart, drag it through that grinding thingie on the back of a can-opener and actually cook dinner. Why does anyone need a Japanese knife? In truth, no one "needs" such a knife.

However, a Japanese knife is a precise instrument forged by years of expertise and refinement. It is quirky, demanding, ridiculously sharp, usually expensive and dangerous to a careless newb. Why would anyone want that?

Well, if you watch my bike wind out third gear on an acceleration ramp, no one has to explain "go fast" to you. Japanese knives provide the same adrenaline rush, a condition you can feel just watching a proficient chef at his calling.

As you know, I sharpened a test mule and took it with me to a Japanese restaurant with a small party of friends. We ate by a grill "in the round" while the chef juggled condiment shakers and lit an onion pyramid aflame.

Before the chef made his first cut with my knife, he grinned and twirled it through his fingers.

That my friends, was worth the entire cost of the dinner!

[boar_d_laze]

Originally Posted by Algavinn

There really is a special allure to Japanese blades and their style. I have actually always been a knife and sword enthusiast, and do own a few Samurai blades.

I know many of the responses you guys give have been said repeatedly on other threads, and forums so I have searched through a lot of that and have gained a lot of info, but feel compelled to ask explicitly. Are you, BDL, and any others, able to describe some of those Japanese knives you listed, what the attributes and qualities of them are that may motivate me to buy one over the other, including how easy/hard maintaining them is, and if any of them permit steels (and what type) to hone them.

Al,

My answer is, "yes."

I need some help from you in terms of narrowing down what you want, how much you're willing to spend, how much time and money you're willing to spend on sharpening tools and learning to sharpen, what your knives skills are like, whether you plan on spending time on your skills, whether you're interested in carbon (as opposed to stainless), whether you're interested in western or Japanese handles, etc.

The more you tell me about you, the better I can narrow down the selection of the knives I know something about to the point where I can give you useful information. There's no sense in talking about the myriad virtues of a Ikkanshi Tadatsuna shiro-ko wa-gyuto if you're not willing to spend more than $300, aren't interested in carbon steel, aren't interested in a Japanese handle, and aren't interested in climibng a fairly steep sharpening mountain.

That said, I've written quite a bit about several stainless knives in the economic sweetspot around $200 for a western handled gyuto. These include MAC Pro, Masamoto VG, Hiromoto G no. 3, Hiromoto AS, Sakai Takayuki Grand Cheff, and Togiharu G-1.

If you're amenable to carbon, the list includes: Masamoto CT, Misono Sweden, Kikuichi Elite and five lines of Sabatier carbons (what you give up in hardness you get back in other attributes).

If you can spend a little more you might also consider the Misono UX-10, Ikkanshi Tadatsuna western series, and the Masamato HC (expensive carbon).

That's something like eighteen knives. You can easily see why I wouldn't want to compare and contrast all of them if you can help me edit the list a little... well... a lot.

Anyway, let me know more about you and we'll get into specifics.

BDL

[Algavinn]

Aye, tourist. When it comes down to it, a big part of why I want such a nice knife is that it is fun. It is a Pleasure to use a superior knife instead of something from the average bed bath and beyond knife section. They are artisans tools and have many benefits, but you can never deny the sheer enjoyment that can come from them. The fact that I can have fun shopping carrots and not be a madman by necessity.


So back to my particular situation. I'd like to keep the knife budget below 200, with a preference of 100-150 but if I find something worth taking it closer to 200 I certainly will. I am in the position and hold the will to perform extra maintenance as necessary to keep up my blade, so more upkeep time is not a deterrent on blade material. I would be open to having a carbon blade, but have no real experience with them so take that as you will. I treat my knives excellently, and will be the only one using them so proper maintenance will be enforced.

My knife skills are good, but I am not at this time a professional cook. I've had some formal training with my knife work, but my current knife demands aren't from a professional atmosphere either. My sharpening skills don't exist yet, but I have some 10 very dull knives of various type, and some good suggestions on sharpening books, and as a currently unemployed individual I have the time and dedication to learn and learn well.

This is part of the reason I'd love to get more experience in store to get my basic understanding more well rounded; I don't know my preference for grip style. Today I was actually feeling well and got out of the house, so soon I can certainly get a better hold on knife handle styles...if any of the Japanese style knives in the area have anything besides western style handles. As mentioned the local supply stores only hold three Japanese brands on location at the moment that I have seen.

I'd prefer not spend a crazy amount on sharpening equipment for the time, especially as for the foreseeable future I wont be doing a large yield of cooking. I have the sharpening stone in the mail that was suggested earlier by Chris. I'd be willing to extend my sharpening resources somewhat, but it really depends on what that entails, and depends on how much the knife itself will cost. I wouldn't be willing to invest another 100 into sharpening equipment at this time.


I appreciate your time very much BDL. I know this can take quite a bit of time, so I'm certainly happy to narrow down as much as possible.

[ChrisLehrer]

Originally Posted by Algavinn

There really is a special allure to Japanese blades and their style. I have actually always been a knife and sword enthusiast, and do own a few Samurai blades.

I know many of the responses you guys give have been said repeatedly on other threads, and forums so I have searched through a lot of that and have gained a lot of info, but feel compelled to ask explicitly. Are you, BDL, and any others, able to describe some of those Japanese knives you listed, what the attributes and qualities of them are that may motivate me to buy one over the other, including how easy/hard maintaining them is, and if any of them permit steels (and what type) to hone them.

I don't mean to rain on your parade, but I think you're going about this badly. Specifically, I think if you approach the issue this way you're going to end up unhappy.

Relatively "traditional" Japanese chefs generally use carbon steel knives, and sharpen them every day. One can get romantic about this, but you shouldn't: it's a crucial task in a professional kitchen, but it's a means to an end, not blade-worship. The knives that matter most, that need to be sharpest and of highest quality, are those that cut food that is not thereafter processed in any major way, e.g. by heat. The less processing that happens after the cut, the more crucial the knife is. Thus a fish-slicer (yanagiba) is an object that receives a kind of fetishism, because you slice the fish and serve immediately, and in sushi places you often do this in front of the guest. The old-fashioned vegetable knife (usuba) very often produces material unprocessed before serving, so again it's a big deal, but it's not quite so direct a connection between cut and table, and thus it's a little lower down, as it were. As for butchering fish, done with a deba, all you care about is that it does its job: ugly as sin makes no difference, and you treat the knife kind of the way a professional baker might treat his Hobart stand-mixer: essential, loved, cared for, but still a honking big thing you shove in the corner.

In this scale, the gyuto doesn't figure at all. These Western knives are used for things that get cooked, especially meat. What's more, in high-end Japanese cooking even today meat is not handled with the kind of precision and delicacy that one sees in a really excellent Western restaurant. They cut it in cubes or slices or whatever, and that's about it.

So when you go to buy knives, you have to realize that if you're focusing on a gyuto, which you almost certainly ought to be, you're getting a bargain price for a knife that's really no big deal, almost an afterthought. I have a Masamoto KS, 270mm. In carbon gyutos, one could argue for it being the best standard-production knife there is, and certainly nobody would object to its being put in the top 10. It cost me a packet: about $260, in Japan, and would cost you about $325 I believe. It is indeed a lovely knife, the finest kitchen implement of any kind I have ever owned. A pleasure to sharpen, takes a terrifying edge easily and holds it, beautifully balanced. For me, it's a thing of beauty: that irregular gray patina looks, if you'll pardon the over-elaborate metaphor, like the eyes of the creepy-attractive contract killer in your favorite movie of the type. It looks like "I kill, and I like it, and that's all there is." I like that -- very, very cool.

But if I wanted a comparable usuba, I'd be looking at $500, give or take. Possibly more, if I thought "comparable" meant honyaki. And for a comparable honyaki yanagiba, the sky's the limit -- I could easily spend over $1000.

If you want the elegant brilliance of the sword-maker in your kitchen, a gyuto isn't the place to look. They're wonderful knives, and I wish more people bought them, but they're not the ultimate in the knife-maker's art. If that's what you're looking for, start saving your pennies and buy a knife... that will be totally useless to you. You and I cannot really appreciate the difference between a $150 yanagiba and a $1000 one, assuming the prices are fairly set. We can't sharpen or cut at that kind of level. And I'm saying nothing at all about a set of knives I have handled in which each of the four knives cost roughly what a Honda Civic costs. What do I know? They're very pretty, yes. And? I mean, what's the difference between those and the $1000 "cheapies"? You've got to be a very high-end specialist to tell the difference, and I remain somewhat uncertain as to whether there really is one at a functional level.

In short, what you want is a knife that will serve you wonderfully. The knife you want is surely Japanese, and will set you back a packet of change. But don't associate it with swords and art and all that: you're just setting yourself up to start slavering after something you can't afford and wouldn't be able to appreciate.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by Algavinn

So back to my particular situation. I'd like to keep the knife budget below 200, with a preference of 100-150 but if I find something worth taking it closer to 200 I certainly will.

Well, let's try pinning it down a bit. Go to Japan Woodworker and see if you can find a knife close to the size, shape and style you are going to need. No need to narrow it down to the final choice, just point us in the right direction.

[Algavinn]

As I've said...I am looking for a good and functional knife. As far as aesthetics go I don't want something that is literally ugly because I do cook and host group dinners regularly, and I do want to enjoy having it, but I am not looking for a samurai cooking knife. I appreciate the tool I am looking for as an evolution of an artisans craft of more than a thousand years, and it is designed for an artisan. I'm not going to sacrifice getting an excellent tool for something with Damascus like cladding because its pretty.



I will take a look over at that site and see what more I can do to narrow the field, but need to grab dinner first.

EDIT:
So with a bit of time re-browsing for handles in mind and some thought to it, the handle below is probably more of what I'm looking for and will be comfortable. I have never worked with the hex handles, but don't imagine I'd like those too much. Without handling various styles I cant really say more as far as the handle goes without it completely arbitrary or aesthetic. Also, to recap I'm looking for an 8-9" gyuto/chefs knife style, and prefer the lighter weight of the Japanese style. I have no preference concerning bolsters or finger guards. Is there any other info I can try to provide?

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by Algavinn

I will take a look over at that site and see what more I can do to narrow the field, but need to grab dinner first.

Go to the Chef (gyuto) knife section and look at the 7.5 inch damascus gyuto, part number 11.625.180 and the price is about 160 bucks.

It's a place to start.

[Algavinn]

Didn't see your post before editing my previous one.

Anything in particular about that knife I should be looking at? As in to compare it to what I think I want/need, specific attributes about it that I may like, etc? ( I do love the spelling error in their description though).

[The Tourist]

Well, I didn't mean that this knife was the be all, end all. I just meant to offer the example as a starting point.

That model is of average length, average price, etc. My guess is that you want 'better,' but we have to begin at some level.

Having said that, that "average" model would be a tremendous upgrade for most home food hobbyists. I sharpen that range of products all of the time, and the edges get very spooky.

[Algavinn]

Aye, I get that, I just mean I'm not sure whether you were kinda holding it up like 'how about this' or asking me if there were certain attributes about it I liked. Is this knife a suggestion?