[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by Algavinn

asking me if there were certain attributes about it I liked. Is this knife a suggestion?

Both, actually.

That knife is sort of an all-arounder. In the Asian vernacular it's a "wa-gyuto." All that means is "cow knife." Think of it as a Swiss Army Knife for food.

But my wife runs her entire kitchen with a knife like that, but hers is a tad shorter.

[boar_d_laze]

Originally Posted by The Tourist

Both, actually.

That knife is sort of an all-arounder. In the Asian vernacular it's a "wa-gyuto." All that means is "cow knife."

Chico, I don't mean to be rude, but it isn't a "wa-gyuto" in any vernacular or language. If you want to get all Japanese about it, it's a yo-gyuto. That means it's a gyuto with a western handle. Wa-gyuto have Japanese handles, different tangs, and (often but not always) what appears to be a small notch between the handle and the topline called a machi and is really a continuation of the tang (nakago).

You did translate gyuto correctly. I've heard speculation about how "cow sword" or "cow knife" came to mean "chef's knife" but no theory seemed to come with better indicia of reliability than any other. I'm currently agnositc but Chris may know something I don't.

Most Japanese manufactured chef's knives are French, as opposed to German, profiles -- especially along the edge. However a number of gyuto have longer toplines, followed by a short-radius curved drop to a low point -- similar to awestern sheep's foot profile or kamagata usuba -- as opposed to the classic French spear point. On the other hand, there are a fair number of spear points as well.

BDL

[Algavinn]

Really, by the description and my very basic knowledge base of kitchen knives at this point I can't really tell you anything by looking at it. The handle in the pic I posted looks most comfortable, but when they describe a knife as having 31 layers, or one ultra hard core with soft cladding, I understand the idea of the functionality of the process and materials, but I really can't go 'ahhh...yes, that does look the best of the options', which is really what I come to you guys asking. Most of the knives I look at in Japan wood worker and other sites look like good quality professional knives, I don't know how to tell between them to know what is the best fit for me, so I can't really do any looking through them and come up with anything constructive. If there are specific questions I can try to supply the answers to, I'd love to so that we can hopefully point me towards what will fit me best and leave me satisfied with a very functional blade for a long time to come. I just sadly don't know how to go about that beyond asking the willing to lead me as far as possible.

[boar_d_laze]

Originally Posted by Algavinn

Really, by the description and my very basic knowledge base of kitchen knives at this point I can't really tell you anything by looking at it. The handle in the pic I posted looks most comfortable, but when they describe a knife as having 31 layers, or one ultra hard core with soft cladding, I understand the idea of the functionality of the process and materials, but I really can't go 'ahhh...yes, that does look the best of the options', which is really what I come to you guys asking.

Well, yes. You're not alone, either.

Do you want a 31 layer, suminagashi cladding? You do if you really like the pattern. If you don't care one way or the other, or prefer a plainer knife, there are better choices. The knife aesthetic which pleases you best, and the relative importance of cosmetic and utilitarian considerations are things which you need to tell us -- as you volunteered below.

From the little I've heard, the knife in the picture you posted is a pretty good knife at a pretty price. It's chief claim to fame seems to be the diagonal cut of the bolster which echoes the bolster shape of Misono's UX-10. It is no UX-10 though (more about the UX-10 in another post).

Most of the knives I look at in Japan wood worker and other sites look like good quality professional knives, I don't know how to tell between them to know what is the best fit for me, so I can't really do any looking through them and come up with anything constructive.

Again, you're not alone. Japan Wood Worker has a fairly well chosen selection. So do Epicurean Edge, Japanese Chef Knife, and Korin to name a few other dealers (and increase the number of confusing choices).

I expect the particular knife you were looking at, at 7-1/2" was too small and too small a handle to be your go-to gyuto. There are a number of choices which make better sense from an ergonomic standpoint.

If there are specific questions I can try to supply the answers to, I'd love to so that we can hopefully point me towards what will fit me best and leave me satisfied with a very functional blade for a long time to come.

The "best" word is troublesome. The best I can do is discuss some good choices. Some will be better than others, but there is no best, not even a best for you.

At the end of the day you're going to be choosing according to your own priorities regarding looks, price, steel type, whether you're partial to the handle, and so on. There will always be some guess work involved, but there would be just as much (or maybe almost as much or maybe even more) guesswork if you had the opportunity for a typical in-store demo. You don't really know that much about a knife until you've used it for a few weeks and sharpened it a couple of times.

I just sadly don't know how to go about that beyond asking the willing to lead me as far as possible.

At the end of the day, all we can hope for is to limit your selections to a pool in which there are only good choices. For what it's worth, that's very doable. Try not to be impatient. I've written the same, very long, "Part I" of an even longer post, three times -- only to lose it to one computer black hole or another. I'm not sure if I have the energy to finish writing it one more time or not tonight. But hold tight for a little longer.

BDL

[Algavinn]

Aye, I certainly don't expect anything close to 'best' until I am far more experienced in my knifework letting me know what I want and expect out of a knife, and more about knives themselves so that I can more properly understand the difference between them. I just hope with this investment that I will get something that will be functionally adequate and satisfy my general needs for a goodly amount of time. In the end at this point of my career I do expect my ultimate choice to be a guess, I just hope it to be more educated than seeing 10-20 knives or more on the table and knowing that they're all 'good'. I may need to ultimately select something based on saving 50$ and liking the finish better, but what can you do?

Aye, I'm hoping more 8-9". 10" feels too long, but I want something more all purpose. Some meat work, vegetable chopping, and various other general tasks. I don't expect amazing top quality in my knife, but something that is indeed good, obviously relative to my price range of preferably 100-150, possibly up to 200, and fitting my sharpening capacity and budget.

Anything else I can do to narrow this to reduce the large degree of guess work possible, I am very eager to do.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by Algavinn

more all purpose...Some meat work, vegetable chopping, and various other general tasks.

Ya' know, it's beginning to sound more like you're looking for a "system" of implements that enhance your level of cooking. I'm wondering if we're even discussing the same knife.

Maybe it's "knives"?

I do know some very serious food hobbyists that purchase a good quality (but not a top end) mid-size santoku and a decent paring knife.

Heck, in that regard you could buy some Pampered Chef products (for under 100 bucks) and happily work for years until you develop a more refined path.

[Algavinn]

Aye, I do already own both of those, and will switch knives depending on what I want, but still lack a chefs knife.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by Algavinn

but still lack a chefs knife.

Okay, that pretty much solves the problem.

I believe JWW sells good stuff at fair market prices and has an admirable customer service track record. If not, I wouldn't rep for them.

(BTW, I get no commission for saying that. You can easily buy their products over the phone or on the 'net. I service only those folks within 1/2 of a tank of gas from my home.)

Go to their gyuto selection, and select a few examples pertaining to size, price and alloy.

Then call their number, punch the #1, and talk to anyone who answers the phone. I know them all, and they are all knowledgeable and polite. Tell them your concerns, and ask more detailed questions.

You'll have an excellent knife in about four days.

[Algavinn]

Much appreciated Tourist Is there a way to net you a commission, however, if I do decide to purchase from them? If anyone gets one I wouldn't mind it heading your way.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by Algavinn

Is there a way to net you a commission.

I appreciate the sentiment, however several years ago I made the decision to never use forums for part of my business.

I hate guys who get a real estate license and then bother everyone at family reunions.

I'm here for light-hearted debate. That's all.

[Algavinn]

Understood, and respected.

In the next few days I'll likely call them, now that I'm mostly recovered (but have a cold...more down time still. It's been a summer of injuries, ER/chiropractor visits and surgery) I need to put some solid time into my online businesses. Afterwards I'll post up what came out of the call.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by Algavinn

It's been a summer of injuries, ER/chiropractor visits and surgery).

I hear ya' cuz it's about the same here. My wife had some surgery, and she's been run-down. As a teacher she catches every little bug from her kids. We thought she had flu or food poisoning this past week.

Try banging some black iron, even if it's a little bit for a short time. It hurts and it gives you something to hate.

I hit it so hard last week that I strained something under my left delt. There's not much I can do about society, so I take it out on striated red muscle.

[Algavinn]

I've actually been a body builder for about 6-7 years now (assuming that's what you refer to), which has been part of the frustration of this summer. I was getting into the best physical health of my life with a new lifestyle including better food and more time for exercise (long bad relationships can mess up your lifestyle), but then came a lower back muscular injury of unknown origin, a slipped disk in my lower back, and then the first actual exercise injury: tearing my neck and right shoulder a bit during a pullup (apparently looking left is a terrible thing to do during this movement!). So aye, soon as I stop being sick I will be getting back to it and I think my injuries are actually all healed enough that I can run (instead of just bike) for the first time in months, and while I wont be deadlifting for another 6 months, I'll be hitting the weights again shortly.


Despite my cold, I find myself quite awake so have put some more forum reading and research into the matters at hand. Thinking about my particular situation, what limited bits I have gleaned from the websites selling these knives (intending on doing some forum crawling and review reading on them, but posting up my thoughts here), as well as the suggestions made on this forum to other members and in discussion, all bringing me to focus on 4 particular chefs knives.

Masamoto HC 210mm
Misono UX 210mm
Mac Pro 8.5”

Hiromoto G no. 3 210mm


If at all possible I'd love to get all of your thoughts, those of whom are familiar with these models. I am hoping to find details on the materials used for their blades, how this affects performance, what maintenance measures and skill levels are required in their care, any other important information about them, and whatever possible qualitative assessment between them might be given for my situation (by the way I forget if I mentioned but I probably have in the range of medium sized hands). I hope to weasel much of this elsewhere as well, but these are what has caught my attention most, granted if anyone thought that there was another blade that surpassed these in some noticeable way around the 160 or below range (that being what I have initially found these listed for) I would certainly be open to hearing about it.

Again, I thank you all for the effort and time you have expended on my behalf.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by Algavinn

Again, I thank you all for the effort and time you have expended on my behalf.

No prob. As long as you remember I am not a cutler. My views on knives are much like the experiences perceived by a "jailhouse attorney." That is, I accumulate knowledge by doing everything wrong.

Masamoto HC 210mm

This would be my pick for a personal and prejudiced reason. Having said that, I have never used one in a prelonged and professional setting. I hope a professional chef jumps into this fray. I can buff the edge, but the pro has to sling it.

I've actually been a body builder for about 6-7 years now (assuming that's what you refer to)

Well, much like the title "polisher," I am not a body builder--I just steal the same ideas and tools. I lift weights. I'm never going to make the cover of GQ, but I enjoy being a strong old fudd. It's nice to be able to move your own motorcycle. Young pups don't bother me either. (Perhaps they don't want me to fall and break a hip, who knows.)

A personal trainer at my gym has drawn up an in-house version of that P90X idea, which is a slant on the old "Weider Muscle Confusion Technique." Trust me, even after all these years it hurts like ****, and to add, the Gaunlet Stairs are clearly the Seventh Circle of ****.

Never dismiss the value of the mental benefits of lifting. Even in my circle of angry young men I am known as the jokester. But the one bad thing I inherited from my Dad was a mercurial temper. Sometimes (like when I cannot solve a client's problem), I ruminate, beat myself up, play the "tape recording" over and over in my head, and worry too much.

A trip to the gym, intense enough to soak your T-shirt, a long hot shower, and some decent tunes on drive home work wonders. When my wife was ill this past winter I was a lost soul. "Prayer and black iron."

[Algavinn]

Never dismiss the value of the mental benefits of lifting. Even in my circle of angry young men I am known as the jokester. But the one bad thing I inherited from my Dad was a mercurial temper. Sometimes (like when I cannot solve a client's problem), I ruminate, beat myself up, play the "tape recording" over and over in my head, and worry too much.

Aye, it has always been an immensely cathartic activity for me. Being able to change yourself to fit your own goals, seeing the immense amounts I can lift, and just the sheer enjoyment of it. My type of personality is strongly centered around mastery. Not competitiveness, but getting as good as I can get at everything I do, so improving myself through a complicated skill definitely has the appeal! I'm also not looking to be a competition bodybuilder, I've gotten the bulk I want, and mostly work on strength, conditioning, and at this point recovery...

I also had similar anger/temper issues from my father, but I spent a significant chunk of time working on those, and now am the most laid back person I know, and have been for some years. It has served me very well, but I certainly know how that goes.


Aye, the Masamoto may be the best knife of the lot, though I may decide to go against starting with carbon, despite the quality of the blade, because of my inexperience. I want a nice blade, but we'll see.