[Algavinn]

Hello all. The stickied knife thread was immensely useful, and has helped me quite a bit, but I really need some more info.

I am an unemployed non-professional cook, with a minimal amount of formal training, looking for culinary work, but currently host small to medium sized group dinners every couple of weeks, and I have yet to get my hands on my own (preferably 8", 10" feel a bit long for me) chefs knife. I am currently using a santoku, boning, and parring knives for most of my knife work, but am unsatisfied with these. I do pinch grip, and I currently own and use a steel but have little experience sharpening my own knives, and would likely get a cheaper quality spare chefs knife to practice with (as well as I need one for some light informal teaching, and for when people assist me in cooking anyway. I would certainly take suggestions for a $50 or less competent 8" chefs knife to learn sharpening on.). I am experienced and skilled enough not to do anything particularly stupid to ruin my knives. I am looking for one that I may potentially use daily, or one I may use only every couple of weeks, or potentially one for each. Aesthetic quality is of some value due to my often open cooking environment for groups.

I have limited experience with professional knives, but find myself enamored by Japanese knives. I find the Shun to feel very natural and comfortable, with a good weight and sharpness. I have tried Global, but just don't find them comfortable, the weighting feels very unnatural to me. I don't feel I need the heft of German style knives, so am not looking for one of those in my chefs knife, and just own one Wusthof parring knife.

So, with all that information listed, on to my questions. I would most definitely at this point prefer a Japanese knife, and so as such I would appreciate a bit of a run down on the attributes of some of the better (quality, not just price, obviously) Japanese knives. How it feels in my hand will be the decider, but I want to make the most informed decision possible for my main chefs knife. Budget wise I would be fine spending 100-150$, but would prefer keep it under 200, so 8" knives around this range if anyone would be able to give me a good description that might help me decide between them (brand and model as fitting) would be immensely appreciated, with my particular needs in mind.

Also, there is a Shun facility very local to me that apparently offers to sharpen my knives for me should I purchase from them. Does anyone have experience or opinions on whether having them sharpen my knives is ideal/a good idea?


Sorry for the long post, I believe in informed questions. Thank you all in advance!

[The Tourist]

You have mail.

[Algavinn]

Appreciated, though as it stands I appear to be looking to get a backup/starting western style chefs knife such as a Wusthof or Forschner, that I should be able to maintain through a honing steel, which I can learn sharpening on. Then, or still, perhaps a Shun, which I can have sharpened for free by the manufacturer locally, unless I am given some good suggestions for other brands that I can go and try my hand on. I am am going to find a supplier locally with some MAC knives, as far as I read these can be maintained fairly well for my volume of usage with the resources at hand.

[The Tourist]

No prob. Good luck to you in your studies. Ask us a lot of questions.

[Algavinn]

Aye. Luckily the posts around here have helped teach me a huge amount about what is out there, and what I want. I would like to know the details about the japanese style brands and models at ~150$ and less in 8 and 10" chefs knives, so that I know what brands to go looking after, which once I am able to drive in a few days I will be actively searching after (surgery yesterday, currently on 4 different medicines). Many of threads around here have detailed some of these brands, so that I see myself at the aforementioned position of likely needing to learn how to sharpen a knife properly so that I don't end up with a knife I can't maintain, or one that is prohibitively expensive because I can't sink 400$ into both knife and sharpening stones for now.

[ChrisLehrer]

I'm going to beat BDL to it:

1. Carbon or stainless?
2. Sharpening plan and budget?

Off the cuff, I'd recommend a King 1000/250-grit combo waterstone, a Togiharu 8" INOX chef's knife, plus a piece of heavy float glass and a pack of wet/dry 400-grit sandpaper from your local hardware store. Grand total should be around $125.

But that assumes (a) you want stainless, and (b) you're going to learn how to sharpen freehand.

[Algavinn]

As far as metal type, I'm still quite new at learning the knife game, and am open to suggestions there. I don't mind spending time to maintain my blades, after having learned how to properly do so. I have an old set of not particularly impressive kitchen knives that I can practice sharpening on, which have probably been needing to be sharpened for 20 years.

Budget as mentioned would preferably total under 200$, landing me with a preferably mid-high quality knife to fit my aforementioned needs. Based on the information rendered I would then head off to the numerous kitchen supply stores and see how the promising models felt.

[ChrisLehrer]

Originally Posted by Algavinn

As far as metal type, I'm still quite new at learning the knife game, and am open to suggestions there. I don't mind spending time to maintain my blades, after having learned how to properly do so. I have an old set of not particularly impressive kitchen knives that I can practice sharpening on, which have probably been needing to be sharpened for 20 years.

Budget as mentioned would preferably total under 200$, landing me with a preferably mid-high quality knife to fit my aforementioned needs. Based on the information rendered I would then head off to the numerous kitchen supply stores and see how the promising models felt.

Carbon steel rusts and requires maintenance that stainless needs a lot less. To oversimplify a very complicated issue, for a given price you generally get more value in a carbon knife than a stainless one, but there are enough exceptions that I wouldn't push anyone on it. I think the most crucial question about carbon steel is whether you are absolutely always going to be the only one every touching the knife in question. If you leave it damp and it rusts, it's your own silly fault, and you can polish and stuff to punish yourself and then not do it again. But if somebody else does it, it's incredibly infuriating, and in the long run it does damage the knife.

As to budget, I meant how much budget for sharpening equipment. If the grand total is to be under $200, and ideally less, I think I'd hold to my current recommendations and just not be bothered if you decide you want a more expensive knife; I would not recommend more expensive sharpening stones at this point.

The business of going to a kitchen store and seeing how things feel doesn't work, I'm afraid, for two reasons. First, essentially none of the really good Japanese knives -- expensive or inexpensive -- will turn up in such a store. Second, quality Japanese knives feel so wildly different from their German counterparts, because they weigh so much less, that you can't seriously compare them without actually cutting a fair bit. For example, my wife has an old 6" Wusthof Trident Grand Prix chef's knife, and I now use a Masamoto that measures 282mm (almost precisely 11"). The Wusthof weighs noticeably more than the Masamoto! I just checked specifications, and apparently the 6" Wusthof weighs 5 1/2 oz., so the Masamoto must be about 5 oz.; since the 10" Wusthof is 10 oz., this means it weighs precisely twice as much as the Masamoto. Clearly you can't compare these knives by holding them in your hand: they're so different as to make comparison meaningless in that "how does it feel?" context.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by ChrisLehrer

Clearly you can't compare these knives by holding them in your hand: they're so different as to make comparison meaningless in that "how does it feel?" context.

I'm with you 75% of the way. The problem then is where to start. Certainly in our circles of friends we have acquaintances with Euro, Sino and/or Nipponese cutting implements.

Sooner or later you have to make your first slice or chop.

[Algavinn]

I will be the only one handling these knives. They wont even be kept in my kitchen because I don't trust those around me with them. All my knives are either sitting here in front of me on my desk in safe containers, or likewise in the garage. I have four-five classes to go for my undergrad work, which may take up to a year depending on scheduling (philosophy major, it gets hard to schedule in the end), and will likely remain unemployed during this time and just cooking/hosting group dinners. Once I do get out I will be seeking a culinary position again, but we'll deal with that when I get to it (be that seeing if there is a chance my knives would be borrowed, chance of being stolen, if I should bring a work set instead, etc.).

I certainly have no problem spending that much cash on the sharpening stones, that seems quite reasonable, and I can get practice with that whole old knife set I have sitting around that is dulled completely. Are those stones fine to use on stainless steel?

While there will always be attributes of how the knife feels you can really only truly tell after a bit of extended use, there is still a lot to be said for feeling them in store as to how comfortable they are. The global for example I only had to pick up and grip and found myself not liking the weight balance. It feels wrong in my hand. I did get a chance to use the shun for a couple of hours and found that very comfortable, and at least that particular kitchen supply store has vegetables on hand so that I can take a few to do some slicing, at least. I don't want to order something I cant either hold in person, or return.

So given this and the above, are there any other Japanese knives you are able to tell me about that seem to fit my needs?


I really appreciate the help Chris.

[boar_d_laze]

Chris and I both have advanced dregrees in philosophy, btw. So you're in bad company.

BDL

[ChrisLehrer]

Originally Posted by Algavinn

I will be the only one handling these knives.

Then in theory, at least, you have the option of buying carbon steel. You have to decide how obsessive-compulsive you are: carbon does require more maintenance. It's not a lot, but it's got to be done every single time, or else. As I say, on the whole you get a little more bang for your buck with carbon.

I certainly have no problem spending that much cash on the sharpening stones, that seems quite reasonable, and I can get practice with that whole old knife set I have sitting around that is dulled completely. Are those stones fine to use on stainless steel?

I should hope not: that combo stone is only $25. Yes, you can use it on anything, but you will quickly learn something about different kinds of steels as you sharpen. You will need to flatten it: wet the sandpaper and stick it on the float glass, and then put the stone on the paper and grind it around in as random motions as you can, shifting grips often to keep it even all over. By the time the medium side of the stone has worn just about to nothing, you'll know a lot about sharpening and what you like, and then you can invest in a more expensive stone, but that will probably be a couple years or more.

While there will always be attributes of how the knife feels you can really only truly tell after a bit of extended use, there is still a lot to be said for feeling them in store as to how comfortable they are. The global for example I only had to pick up and grip and found myself not liking the weight balance. It feels wrong in my hand. I did get a chance to use the shun for a couple of hours and found that very comfortable, and at least that particular kitchen supply store has vegetables on hand so that I can take a few to do some slicing, at least. I don't want to order something I cant either hold in person, or return.

I don't agree with you, but you're the one buying, not me. So you're limited to what you can find in a shop -- a dramatic limitation.

So given this and the above, are there any other Japanese knives you are able to tell me about that seem to fit my needs?

Unless you live in a city that has a fancy (expensive) specialty cutlery shop stocking high-end Japanese knives, no. You probably want Shuns. What else is there? You don't like Globals -- fair enough -- and little else is going to turn up in any shop other than the various Germans, especially Wusthof and Henckels, and they weigh a ton and IMO are irritating and overpriced. If you're lucky enough to find a shop that stocks a range of Japanese brands, go ahead and look. But the only shops like this in the US that I know of are in New York, and I believe in the Seattle area. There might be one in the LA area somewhere -- BDL would probably know. Other than that it's all online shopping. You might see if there is a large restaurant supply store in your area: they may stock a wider range of things, but it's hard to predict.

If you're limited to what's in a store, don't worry about the carbon/stainless issue: you'll find stainless only, probably.

[Algavinn]

I had looked through some of the product catalogs of some of my local kitchen supply stores and had thought had seen a greater selection than this, but aye all I'm mostly seeing are Shun, Global, and limited Masahiro. This is indeed a very considerable limitation, and I don't want to be that held back from getting a high quality knife, and one that I can maintain personally, but I want to ensure that it is very comfortable in my hand. So at this point I'm not quite sure what to do. What happens if I purchase a knife online and end up being unsatisfied with how it feels in my hand, or based off my comfort with the balance and feel of Shun, and my primary use of pinch grip are you able to make some likely fitting suggestions of those that are not in my local stores? Obviously I'm really new to the knife game, being used to using mostly non-professional knives, and a limited selection of pro-grade. I'm just rather lost as to how to ensure I will get something that satisfies my needs and personal tastes (naturally hard when you don't have much of a developed personal taste).

[ChrisLehrer]

Originally Posted by Algavinn

I had looked through some of the product catalogs of some of my local kitchen supply stores and had thought had seen a greater selection than this, but aye all I'm mostly seeing are Shun, Global, and limited Masahiro. This is indeed a very considerable limitation, and I don't want to be that held back from getting a high quality knife, and one that I can maintain personally, but I want to ensure that it is very comfortable in my hand. So at this point I'm not quite sure what to do. What happens if I purchase a knife online and end up being unsatisfied with how it feels in my hand, or based off my comfort with the balance and feel of Shun, and my primary use of pinch grip are you able to make some likely fitting suggestions of those that are not in my local stores? Obviously I'm really new to the knife game, being used to using mostly non-professional knives, and a limited selection of pro-grade. I'm just rather lost as to how to ensure I will get something that satisfies my needs and personal tastes (naturally hard when you don't have much of a developed personal taste).

I'm not the guy to answer this, really -- I bought my knives in Japan. I think the thing to do is to buy from a relatively large outfit like Korin or Epicurean Edge or the like, where they have a clearly-stated returns policy. If you have questions about that policy, ask before you buy. Don't buy knives on ebay or similar, even if the prices are lower; many of those folks are very honest and great to deal with, but you don't want to take that chance.

Beyond this, I leave it to the many other posters here who've bought such knives in the U.S.

[boar_d_laze]

In terms of handle comfort, some knives are notoriously good. The three "Ms" by way of example: MAC, Masamoto, and Misono. If you like Wusthof classic at all, you're going to love those. Some knives have known peculiarities. For instance, Hiromoto handles are narrow. Togiharu handles a bit short. Glestain is awkward for big hands. Etc. The more specific you are about which knives are under consideration, the more specific we can be about issues.

People who talk about "balance," generally don't know much about knives or how to use them. Unless the knives are specifically balanced, like Gude Viking or Global, the balance point changes with the length of the knife.

Rat tail knives are more balance forward than full tang knives. Longer knives are more balance forward than shorter knives. German profile knives, because of their bolster design, are slightly more balance neutral (balanced at or just in front of the finger guard) than French knives. Knives with finger guards (most European and American which actually have bolsters) tend to be more neutral than knives without bolsters or without finger guards.

Japanese manufactured knives are almost always considerably lighter than their western manufactured counterparts, this tends to make them feel less balanced. In the store, the balance seems important. However, over even a short time (a couple of meals at most) weight matters a lot more; and the imbalance, such as it is, begins to feel natural.

I suggest contacting MAC through MAC USA. They have a pretty good distribution system and you may be able to find one you can wave around and pretend to cut with -- if that's important to you. (MAC also has excellent customer service and a great guarantee. The MAC Pro should be on your short list.)

Some others: Masamoto VG; Togiharu G-1 (slightly more affordable clone of the Masamoto, F&F and handle suffer a bit by comparison); Misono Moly (great handle, okay steel); Misono UX-10 (great looks, great ergonomics, maybe too expensive); Hiromoto G3 (great stainless); Hiromoto AS (excellent carbon core, surrounded by stainless); and the Hattori forum knife (same review as the Misono UX-10).

I'll need a signed waiver before I get into a discussion of carbons. Basically you want to look at Misono Sweden, Kikuichi Elite, Thiers Issard **** Elephant Sabatier, K-Sabatier, Masamoto CT, Masamoto HC (would probably be my first choice if I were starting over, but expensive), "Nogent" Sabatier, "Massif" Sabatier, and "Canadian" Sabatier. For the record, I own a bunch of Sabatiers -- most of them pretty old.

Shun are not bad knives, and neither are Masahiro. But they aren't in the same league as the other Japanese knives manufactured. That said, they're much better than Wusthof or almost any other western knife -- at least in blade quality. I'm going to paste a link to something I just wrote in another thread that goes into some detail about Shun, Wusthof Classic and their ilk: Knives for a newbie

If, after all that, you're still at all interested in Wusthof, you might want to take a look at the "Le Cordon Bleu" Wusties at Cutlery and More. The LCBs preceded the Ikon lines, use the same steel (X50CrMoV15), the same cut down bolsters no finger guard on the choil, and are ground to the same 15* bevel (Classics are ground to 20*). They seem to have been discontinued, although they're still on Wusthof's website they aren't available from very many retailers. Cutlery and More has a few shapes and lengths, and have them at a very good price. They may be the best deal going in German knives.

Hope this helps,
BDL