Where does one start upon graduation

I'm interested in knowing what type of job one should expect upon graduating from one of the top culinary schools--assuming he/she had no/little experience prior to school. Sous chef? Also, if anyone has any thought on the California Culinary Academy, I'd appreciate hearing them (in a topic in this board from a while back, people seemed to have bad things to say about it). Thanks.

[Elsie]

Good question, staschu. Looks like we are in a similar situation. I was kind of hesitant about posting this question myself, so thanks! I am in my first semester of cooking school but have zero experience in the food service/hospitality industry prior. I will be applying for an externship for next semester, but I have no idea what life is going to be like after graduation. My guess is that a lot is going to depend on internships/externships/apprenticeships, etc. in addition to schooling.

Elsie

[Suzanne]

Sous Chef?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? With little or no experience?!?!?!?!??!?!!?!?!?! That's the funniest thing I've heard in a long, long time!

The short answer is: whatever the chef thinks he/she will be able to handle.

Assuming he/she did not make a fool of him/herself by suggesting such a ridiculous proposition in the interview, and is offered a trail,

AND does all right on the trail (does not cut off a body part from or incinerating self or others; keeps mouth SHUT except to say "Point me toward the walk-in; I'll find the whatever" or to ask "How do you want me to do that? Will you please show me one first?" or "Can I help you turn those artichokes/peel that garlic/chiffonade that crate of basil,etc."),

THEN:

HE might be offered a line cook position;
SHE might be offered garde manger or pastry assistant (unless she's lucky enough to have found an ultra-liberal chef who would give ANYBODY a chance; then maybe she'll be offered prep cook).

Yes, my friend, I know I sound bitter, but that's what I've seen.

[KyleW]

Originally posted by Suzanne in NYC:
<STRONG>Sous Chef?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? With little or no experience?!?!?!?!??!?!!?!?!?! That's the funniest thing I've heard in a long, long time!

...

Yes, my friend, I know I sound bitter, but that's what I've seen.</STRONG>

nah, not bitter, just from NYC. Which is a good thing

i'm doing a so called chef education myself, but i don't have any other ideas about the future than i have to start from the very bottom. i see my stay in school as the place where to have time to really do a lot of theoretical study, make a lot of experiments and misstakes and do all the traditonal dishes. when you finally get out in reality you'll have a foundation to build upon and feel a little bit more confident about what you are doing in the kitchen.

my advice as a student to another student: make use of your brain all the time. do the heavy study! it will pay off. make sure you learn everything you can about the physics and chemists behind the "art of cooking" (water, heat, pH, osmos, emulsions, starch, fat, protein, the cell). all about cooking prepeartions and methods, but from a more scientific way. i mean there is no other field that are so based upon old traditional generation to generation, chef to chef tips of how to do this or that. but learn WHY it's working like this or if it's works better in another way. understand what you are doing and why you are doing it in this way. learn about taste, conistence, colour and form.

in school we have time to do all of these studies AND to be in a kitchen to test and taste and try and try. the school is the first step in a long career to be an (hopefully) independent and creative chef.

[isaac]

first and formost, it doesnt matter what school you hail from. second... the most important thing is that you want to learn and that you will do it the CHEFS WAY.

i am a student of the culinart inst of america. i went to a culinary school before i went to the cia and i have 4 years or so of experiance. this means NOTHING.

i plan on take the bachlor program at the cia....this means nothing either.

i will not take a sous chef position at all... even if it was handed to me. why? becasue i do not want to be humiliated or look like a fool. i will be humble and work my way up. that is the ONLY way to be succesfull. after you have a number of practical years in the profession.... then you can take a sous chef position. you must ask yourself what a sous chef really does? for me, a sous chef means that i am the chef... i have to think like the ex chef. i have to be there all the time... be there for people, handle people, deal with people, disapline people, hire people, and motivate people. this is all VERY hard to do and this is only part of it. you have to know how to take inventory, cost out recipes, manage money, write menues, create speicals, deal with vendors, order food, ect. you have to train people, you have to watch your back all the time....being a sous chef is very hard work. i think that the skills you are given out of culinary school are only a basic foundation of the like of a chef. you know have the ducation but you lack the practical education, ie... in the field. my first chef told me that in the life of a chef, he has his schooling and practical experiance. school, like i said will teach you the basics and that is all but life out there in a restaraunt is tougher... way diffrent.

one peice of advise my dad said... never bite off what you cant chew. you will make yourself look like a fool, the school you hail from look like a fool, your pears look liek a fool, your chef look like a fool, your food look like a fool, and the restaraunt look like a foold. dont risk it. start small. just becasue you paid thousands of dollars doesnt mean life owes yo ua sous chef position. i wouldnt take it at all. learn each stage of the kitchen. you cant be a sous chef... or chef for that matter unless you know how every aspect of the kitchen is ran like from the dish pit to the grill and wheel.

if you graduated from the cia, dont make the school look like a fool... please.

dont bite off more then you can chew.

thats my 2 cents

Wow. Thanks for all the great feedback so far, folks. I'm sorry that my question came across as so arrogant. I was actually just naively repeating what this ding-dong recruiter/admissions guy from one of the schools told me when I toured the campus ("Oh, you'll start as a Sous Chef after you graduate"). Without knowing much at all about this profession, I was skeptical--that's why I asked this discussion group. I would LOVE to hear about anyone's first experiences upon graduation, though.

[Kimmie]

Hello Staschu,

I just wanted to welcome you to Cheftalk.

If you browse on the board, you will find lots useful advice!

[chefteldanielle]

Hello Stachu..
Iam also a student to graduate in January 2002 and I was a bit preturbed about the extremely negative post earlier..
The answer is that it all depends where you go and what you want to do.
If you are smart and play your cards right your walk up the ladder is much smoother and possibly faster than many had to endure.
I too have no experience and I was offered several jobs in positions I could not possibly be ready for (in my opinion). Therefore I did not take them.
Even a teaching position.. go figure and Iam still in school..So I read alot and I have travelled all over the world and know a few things about different types of cooking.
Iam a medical person and have no clue about what goes on in a restaurant period. Well I know a little. I just know that Iam not ready and when you are you will know and you will be able to apply for jobs that suit your expertise.
I am sure Iam a bit older than you and I have alot of experience with numbers and $$$ and supervision and peopleskills and I can tell you that Iam sure I could come up with great new menus and do my inventory and costing like a pro. But I do not think I could be a sous chef yet..
Good luck in your search and school
Danielle

[Greg]

Welcome to cheftalk, staschu. Don't worry, you didn't come across as arrogant; you clearly stated that you had little experience, so how could you know? This willingness to ask questions that may make you look like a fool is exactly what I look for in an inexperienced cook; keep it up and you'll learn a lot and go further (and faster) in your career. As others have said, take a job as a line cook. I would recommend working in a country club. You get to play with higher end ingredients and the pay is better than in restaurants.

Regarding Suzanne's post: Our job as experienced professionals is to educate (kindly) those that are just starting out, not ridicule them for their lack of knowledge. While I am a firm believer in the Bourdain principle of weeding out the weak and the infirm, I'm also a firm believer in this: There are no stupid questions, only stupid mistakes. The most beautiful thing about cheftalk is the free exchange of ideas and information in a friendly manner. I'm a sous chef and have learned much here, including from those that frequent this board that aren't professional cooks. If cheftalk members start to make fun of those that have less knowledge, then people start to become afraid to ask questions and the board dies. So let's be a little nicer, shall we?

[ September 07, 2001: Message edited by: Greg ]

[Suzanne]

Greg: There ARE stupid mistakes: the ones we don't learn from.

I did not intend to make fun of anyone. I just thought (and still think) that believing that one might start as a sous right out of school when one has no experience shows a naivete that will only get the believer hurt. Not to mention gullibility. I'd hate to see someone with a promising future go into this business with unreal expectations, be they of the difficulty of the work, or the prospects for advancement. I've seen too many good people drop out, or become "it's-just-a-job" hacks. Bet you have, too.

A little learning is a dangerous thing;/Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring;/There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,/And drinking largely sobers us again. -- Alexander Pope

[Suzanne]

One more thing: since some of you seemed not to have read the body of my original message, I would like to repeat (or at least paraphrase) it:

1. You can expect to be offered a position the chef thinks you can handle.Addition: You might also be offered something the chef desperately needs, with no thought of whether or not you could actually do it. Just because someone is a chef, that still doesn't mean that s/he is a clear-eyed administrator (although the best ones ARE).

2. Because there is still discrimination in the kitchen (not everywhere, but still...), depending on your *** , language skills, ethnicity, etc., you might be offered a very different position from what you really ARE capable of doing. You then have the choice of taking the lesser job and working your tail off to prove yourself, or looking elsewhere. If it happens to you a few times, you may have to decide harder questions about trying to change the world or not.

3. This is new. Keep an open mind, and keep learning. The end of school is barely the beginning of your career.

Now, was that "nice" enough?

There is clearly a lot of emotion involved in this topic. Again, I in no way intended to disrespect or disregard the knowledge and skills that can obviously come only through experience in this field. I basically was trying to understand what sort of "practical" experience comes from these schools, and what it typically translates to in terms of starting position upon graduation. After all, these culinary schools are not all textbooks and classroom study. Most of the time is spent in the kitchen, and there are externships, etc.

In a previous life, I actually did go through an experience where, by virtue of my schooling, I was deemed a "leader" (I went to the Naval Academy in Annapolis, and upon graduation was put in charge of dozens of men on a submarine, all of whom had more real-world experience than me--some with decades more). I actually managed to succeed in that environment, but ONLY because I was humble and respected my men, and deferred to their knowledge and experience.

However, in the kitchen, it is apparently different. Based on all your responses, it sounds like there is no replacement for actually experiencing all levels. And that's fine. I just need to understand what I'm getting into before I enter into this enormous career change (I'm 40 years old, and have spent the past dozen or so years in the "corporate" world, making a very good salary, etc.--but at the expense of happiness, passion, etc.).

[blanchtoque]

At the end of the interview the Personnel Manager asked the fresh Culinary School Graduate what kind of salary she expected.

Remembering the glowing promises of the Culinary School Recruiter, she confidently suggested, "$100,000 depending on the benefits."

The Personnel manager countered with, "How about 4 weeks paid vacation, All the national Holidays plus Mother's Day, Easter, Thanksgiving and Christmas off with pay. A 100 % Company matched retirement fund, Fully paid Medical for you and your family, and a company leased BMW."

With her mouth agape, The new recruit exclaimed, "Your kidding."

The Manager retorted, "Yes, but you started it."
***************
At least Staschu had the sense to investigate the hollow promises of the Recruiter. What of the rest. Will they graduate with a feeling of entitilement to positions of authority in kitchens across the country.

[W.DeBord]

I tend to agree with Suzanne as far as what I've seen and experienced. The fact that you've been in the military and survived a mostly male enviroment will be very helpful! Most kitchens are male dominated and a female must be extremely strong to flurish in that situation.

Suzanne hit it right, where you start and how things go completely depend on what your chef is like. Some are well educated and great leaders and some shouldn't be allowed to train a dog. Just move on to another job until you find a good chef to work under.

At 40 with your background school might not be the way to go. If you've cooked your whole life you could learn on the job....just a thought a school recruiter won't tell you.

P.S. If your going into culinary school because you have the military backing your education I spend the money in business school where you can't just pick up the skills on a paying job....but that's me, the cooking comes easy, it's what you do with it later that a business education comes in handy.

Just my two cents...and not the advice I'd give someone half your age, my remarks are for a 40 year old female with you military background.