Thickened gravy turns liquid next day

[chefboy2160]

OK Scott,for meat such as a prime rib roast well I like to carmelize the outside very quickly and then slow roast(this works well with all large roasts of different animals). Hey dude, every cook has some difference but what is proper procedure and works just is.It is not about sealing in the juices but about texture on your roast.As far as Sauces go well my friend you should reconsider your sources.The posts you have read are by some realy good chefs who are not posting to make themselves appear better than you but to just lend a helping hand to those who ask questions.Some of us kinda tend to know what works and what does not due to schooling and of course trial and error.Also I have never heard the word gelatizining used with roux or flour before.Flour is a starch while gelatin is an animal protien found in bones.Such is the reduction and sauce for Osso Buco.
Scott, proper technique is what most chefs are trained in!Yeah you can branch out and you can make whatever recipes you want but the foundation is there for a reason because others have come before us to lay it before us by there hard work.Knowledge is where you find it but can only be absorbed if you realy listen.Doug...................

[Icedhazelnut]

Thank you all for your replies, my question sure sparked a great discussion.

Well, from what I can gather from all your responses I may be cooling improperly (in ahurry to clean up and get done) and I don't store the gravy separately. I will do both in the future and see what results I get. I did use fresh flour and I did recook. I do like to salt my serving of food on my plate. So, It might be possible that without knowing it I'm adding salt to the stored mixture compounding the problem.

Thanks!

[travelchick]

This is what is so interesting about cooking. Everyone has their method

Although, I referenced my Escoffier on this and he says simmer for 2 hours. Of course, he's making a gallon...does more sauce mean longer simmer? Or not?

I don't know, I've never made a bechamel. One of those things on my list of "to do"

[scott123]

Originally Posted by kuan

All this over reheating gravy? Scott's on a mission to explain the process of gelatinization. But there's more to gelatinizing starch when making bechamel. When you gelatinize the starch you actually bust the starch granule. When you further cook it you break it down further into its sugar components like dextrose and such. Did you know that corn syrup is actually made from cornstarch? Enzymes are used in breaking down the cornstarch. I just learned that today from the wife.

Maybe we're wrong when we describe the "raw" feel of starch in our mouths. We're probably tasting a big starch granule which hasn't been broken down. Nevertheless there is a difference in letting a bechamel simmer for 20-30 minutes as opposed to three minutes.

Anyway to get a nice white bechamel use clarified butter to make the roux. It's better if you can get butter without the annato color. Use a stainless steel pot like Greg says. If the color changes that means you're burning stuff. Simmer it on low heat. Sugars don't caramelize at 212 degrees F. Just watch it and have a little cold milk on the side to knock it down if you see it starting to boil.

Kuan

Kuan, I know this response comes way after the fact but I reread this post and noticed a few things that I had missed before.

First of all, the conversion of starches to dextrose (dextrinization) occurs with dry heat, not wet (the crust of bread or when making a roux).

You are correct about big starch granules being broken down to little ones by extra simmering. I still contend that 5 minutes of simmering and vigorous whisking will perform the same task without compromising the milk sugars.

And, believe it or not, sugars do caramelize at 212 degrees f. We only associate higher temperatures with caramelization because of the speed involved. Caramelization can and does occur at lower temperatures, it's just decelarated.

[scott123]

Originally Posted by travelchick

This is what is so interesting about cooking. Everyone has their method

Although, I referenced my Escoffier on this and he says simmer for 2 hours. Of course, he's making a gallon...does more sauce mean longer simmer? Or not?

I don't know, I've never made a bechamel. One of those things on my list of "to do"

Escoffier says 2 hours, huh? That doesn't surprise me since he simmers his stock for 12 hours, a number I find excessive as well. I have met chefs that swear by 48 hour stocks, so, you're right, to each his own.

More sauce translates into more time to get to a simmer, but once your sauce is simmering the clock is the same for both a small and large quantity. Once the bechamel is removed from the heat, the larger quantity will hold it's heat longer if it isn't broken down into smaller vessels or steps taken to speed it's cooling.

Bechamel rocks! Once you do make one (cooking either 5 or 20 minutes ) it will be a thrilling experience, I promise you.

Please let us know how it goes. And welcome to the forum.

[travelchick]

Yes, bechamel certainly tastes good, I've eaten plenty but just never made one.

Thanks for the welcome! I just found this board and have been wanting to join a cooking forum with more serious people in it. It seems that lots of people cook by opening a can and dumping out sauce or whatever, not my preferred method so I'm very glad to be somewhere I can learn!

[kuan]

Originally Posted by scott123

And, believe it or not, sugars do caramelize at 212 degrees f. We only associate higher temperatures with caramelization because of the speed involved. Caramelization can and does occur at lower temperatures, it's just decelarated.

I don't believe it. I don't believe that sugars can caramelize at 212F. Toss a handful of sucrose into a pan of boiling water and see how long it takes. The boiling point of sugar is higher than that of water, how does it burn before it boils?

Kuan

[scott123]

Originally Posted by kuan

I don't believe it. I don't believe that sugars can caramelize at 212F. Toss a handful of sucrose into a pan of boiling water and see how long it takes. The boiling point of sugar is higher than that of water, how does it burn before it boils?

Kuan

Yes, you are correct. My choice of the word 'caramelize' was a poor one. The caramelization of a pure sucrose/water solution can't occur at 212F. But the browning of a sugar/protein solution does. Maillard reactions are associated with higher temperatures because of the speed involved. They do occur at lower temps, though. Without the protein in milk, you could boil it for an eternity and it wouldn't brown. Once you have that sugar/protein combo, it's a different ball game.

[Nick.Shu]

*sigh*

o.k. Kuan's point of sucrose in water having a higher density is (partially) correct. By introducing something of a higher density to water, you increase its boiling point. That is one of the reasons water is salted in cooking (by increasing the salinity of the water, you therefore increase the density, and the boiling point giving you a quicker cooking time i.e. pasta. Sugar is the same, thats why we have baume or saccharometers. A good example is the addition of sugar to egg yolks to make sabayon.

to a certain extent, scott123 is also correct - with regards to a "maillard reactions". However, the flaw in this argument, is that how can the cooked sugars that exist in the roux affect the disposition of the lactose that havent been cooked to the certain extent without excessive heat.

there within lies the enigma. or perhaps not. without excessive heat to *caramelise* the lactose, the mixture will remain white. Another factor to consider is the amount of cooking the roux undergoes. Too much and the colour and flavour taint will spread through your sauce.

the mouth feel of a raw chunk of wheat flour is both instantly recognisable and unappealing.

But anyway i digress.

To me, it sounds, possibly, that it might be too much liquid. from what you said "i added a little stock and thickened it with flour".

Some questions i have for you: what sort of flour are you using?, perhaps you should have reduced the amount of stock by half?.

Perhaps you should post the recipe here for further opinion. By doing that, the chefs here have a better feel for what could be happening with your technique.

happy cooking
Nick.

[scott123]

Originally Posted by Nick.Shu

However, the flaw in this argument, is that how can the cooked sugars that exist in the roux affect the disposition of the lactose that havent been cooked to the certain extent without excessive heat.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. The sugars in the roux have no bearing on my argument. What I am contending is that milk, with or without roux, if simmered for 20 minutes, will be a shade darker.

[Nick.Shu]

i see what you mean.

the tendency of the lactose to brown depends greatly on what heat the milk is cooked at, whether or not the sugars (lactose) settle on the bottom of the pot and burn, the actual composition of the milk, etc.

some factors to consider here would be such things as, the type of base of the pot used, the amount of heat applied. Another consideration would be, was the roux cooked in the same pot prior to making the bechamel, without cleaning. Another could be the strength of the flour used, how much was the roux cooked out and so forth.

Sometimes a myriad of factors combine to compund an effect.

[Mikeb]

When I make gravies I cool them quickly and uncovered, they never go 'liquid' the next day. Even better, I like to thicken sauces just by reducing them - much more flavourful, they keep very well too.

For bechamel, the chefs I've talked to said to simmer for at least 20 minutes, one said you can even simmer it for an hour or two to make it even smoother... I usually do mine for around 20 (I'm impatient), it turns out just fine. Still bright white, nice and smooth. No discolouration...

[scott123]

Originally Posted by Mikeb

For bechamel, the chefs I've talked to said to simmer for at least 20 minutes, one said you can even simmer it for an hour or two to make it even smoother... I usually do mine for around 20 (I'm impatient), it turns out just fine. Still bright white, nice and smooth. No discolouration...

Bright white? How long do you cook your roux?

And I should qualify that when I refer to a 'shade' darker it is a very subtle shift. It's nowhere near the change that occurs between pasteurized and ulta-pasteurized cream nor is it in the realm of milk and evaporated milk. These are extreme examples of the type of transformation that occurs, though.

[Mikeb]

The roux I cook on low heat for a couple minutes, add the milk, then let simmer for 20+ minutes after (low heat of course, stirring quite often). Maybe it is a *shade* darker - still bright white though.

[Greg]

This is still going on? I've been cooking professionally for 20 years, as have many of the other chefs who have replied on this topic. Like them, I simmer any sauce thickened with a starch for a minimum of 20 minutes. If I don't, I can taste said starch. My palate does not lie, certainly not day after day after day, ad nauseum that I've made bechamel. Even if the result would be a white sauce that was a shade darker (and it is not), I would still do so because my priority is to make food that tastes good. We can argue the science behind it and throw around terms like "maillard reaction" and "gelatinization", but the truth of the matter is that experience gives you the correct answer. The science is interesting and important, but it's not the be all, end all.