Thickened gravy turns liquid next day

[Icedhazelnut]

Why does all my gravies turn into running liquids when reheated a day or two later?

This happens all the time. What food science do I not understand?
For example, I sauted some red and green peppers, scallions, mushrooms (I sauted the mushrooms separately because I know they have a lot of water in them and then added them to the other sauted vegetables) added my sauted chicken pieces added a little stock then thickened the mixture with flour.

It thickened nicely, we ate sumptuously and I put away the leftovers for dinner the next night.

When I poured the vegetables and chicken into the pan, the juice/gravy was as thin as water. Why?

Thank you,

[Chefmeow]

Are you cooling it properly, uncovered and quickly? If you are covering it tightly while it is still hot, (especially with plastic wrap) condensation builds inside the container and thins your gravy.(not to metion an unsafe cooling practice). If this is not the case, I really have no idea what in the world would cause that. I would be interested to find out.

[scott123]

The moisture that makes up the condensation originated from the gravy you put in the container. If the container is sealed, regardless of the condensation, no water is being added or subtracted.

My best guess is that the salt in the gravy is drawing moisture from the veggies and the chicken. If your veggies and chicken were stored separatedly from the gravy than the gravy would be the same consistency when warmed.

[kuan]

Old flour or you didn't cook it enough. Do you recook it when you reheat?

Kuan

[chefboy2160]

Use roux as your thickening agent,bring your sauce or gravy to a boil, simmer for about 20 minutes and youve got good sauce you can use for the next 5 days(allowing you chill it quickly).Cornstarch thickened sauces will not reheat to there origional consistencies nor will sauces sprinkled with (wondra) flour.Trust me this works as I used to make very large quantities of demi glace(for beef gravy mostly),turkey gravy, chicken gravy, and of course that most popular bechamel made with ground sausage(yeah country gravy) to top the chiken fried steaks and biscuits with! Like kuan said reheat it to 165 and youll be cool.Good eats , Doug.........................

[scott123]

Kuan, it doesn't take long for the starch in flour to gelatinize (within seconds in a boiling liquid). Once it does gelatinize, the thickness of the sauce shouldn't change with reheating. Even if the sauce wasn't cooked long enough to gelatinize all the flour, it would still be the same soupy consistency the next day. Nothing would change. Flour can't revert to an ungelatinized state.

Doug, you simmer your bechamel for 20 minutes?!?!?!

[chefboy2160]

Scott,when you have 40 gallons of the goo in your steam jacketed kettle and you bring it to a boil and then shut it off it still continues to simmer for quite a while.Just make sure your cooks helper who is panning this stuff up for you does not scrape the skin on the inside of the pot.
Oh, I most definately agree with kuan that you did not cook your flour long enough.Doug..................

[scott123]

Doug, 20 minutes is way too long for bechamel, whether being cooked by it's own latent heat or via heat source. The proteins/sugars in the milk start to brown very quickly. After 20 minutes doesn't your bechamel develop a slightly beige tint? That tint, besides being unappetizing to the eye, is proof of compromised flavor.

A non milk based gravy thrives under long simmering but not a bechamel.

If your circumstances force you to cook your bechamel for 20 minutes, that's one thing. Recommending it as an "ideal" time is an entirely different story.

[kuan]

There's short cut bechamel and there's bechamel. If you want to quickly thicken your bechamel fine, but if you want a smooth silky bechamel which doesn't taste like flour then you have to use proper technique.

[chefboy2160]

Your right Scott.Im sorry but 20 minutes is wrong.In my copy of the New Professional Chef (I think this is like a school book for people who are lucky enough to go to culinary school of which alas, I am not one of these) there are 2 recipes for Bechamel.The first one says "Simmer for a minimum of thirty minutes.(some chefs prefer to simmer the sauce for up to one hour)The second recipe says to just simmer the sauce for thirty minutes.
The reason you simmer the sauce is to cook the flour.If you just throw it in and serve as soon as it thickens what you will be serving is paste. When a white sauce is made properly it can be held for many hours on a steam table or soup pot. When the flour is not cooked is when the sauce will break and also will not rethermalize to its previouse consistency.When you see cream soups break the most common culprit is that the soup was not simmered to allow the flour to cook so yes , even though youve got the flour in the sauce and its thick does not mean that it will stay that way.When a cream sauce breaks it turns to a very watery consistency.
Hope this helps , just remember to cook that flour.Doug..........

[scott123]

Originally Posted by kuan

There's short cut bechamel and there's bechamel. If you want to quickly thicken your bechamel fine, but if you want a smooth silky bechamel which doesn't taste like flour then you have to use proper technique.

Kuan, don't tell me you too simmer your bechamel for 20+ minutes.

Assuming you have cooked your roux sufficiently, any raw flour taste will disappear upon gelatinization. The prolonged cooking has nothing to do with the taste of the flour, it's for breaking down the starch particles for a more velvety sauce. Which, when making a non-milk based gravy works wonderfully. But not for bechamel. It's called "white" sauce for a reason. Not "beige" sauce.

[Greg]

The thing that will turn a bechamel an off-white color is making your roux in an aluminum pan. Simmering a sauce for 20 minutes to stabilize it and to cook out raw flour taste is common practice.

[scott123]

Doug, I can show you text books that say 12 hours for simmering stock and others that will swear by 4. Text books mean very little to me. What I want to hear is the science involved. Show me the chemistry behind cooking sauces to remove the raw flavor taste. If there is, I'm not familiar with it.

The starches in flour:
A. first gelatinize
B. then break down further for a smoother sauce.

Once flour gelatinizes there is no raw flour taste to be cooked away. You're not getting maillard reactions in your sauce toasting the rawness out of the flour. The starch in sauce is much like the crumb of bread. The bread hits a certain temperature, steamed is formed and the starches in the flour gelatinize. Water + flour + sufficient temperature = gelatinization. Do you eat the middle of french bread and say "that tastes like raw flour?" of course not.

Gelatinized flour rethermalizes to exactly the same consistency whether it is cooked for 5 minutes or 30. It doesn't revert. It's a physical impossibility. And you can't say that it isn't completely gelatinized in 5 minutes, either. In boiling water flour gelatinizes in seconds.

The reason behind prolonged simmering is textural. Prolonged simmering and rigorous whisking both will break down the starches to create a smoother sauce. With a carefully prepared roux and rigorous whisking, there is no difference in texture between a 5 minute bechamel and a 10 minute one (or a 20, 0r a 30). But there will be a difference in color when the proteins/sugars in the milk begin to caramelize.

[scott123]

Originally Posted by Greg

The thing that will turn a bechamel an off-white color is making your roux in an aluminum pan. Simmering a sauce for 20 minutes to stabilize it and to cook out raw flour taste is common practice.

Greg, how many years was it "common practice" to sear meat to seal in the juices?

I don't buy into anything because it's common practice or plastered all over textbooks. Too much of this stuff has been proven as myth. Give me the science.

[kuan]

All this over reheating gravy? Scott's on a mission to explain the process of gelatinization. But there's more to gelatinizing starch when making bechamel. When you gelatinize the starch you actually bust the starch granule. When you further cook it you break it down further into its sugar components like dextrose and such. Did you know that corn syrup is actually made from cornstarch? Enzymes are used in breaking down the cornstarch. I just learned that today from the wife.

Maybe we're wrong when we describe the "raw" feel of starch in our mouths. We're probably tasting a big starch granule which hasn't been broken down. Nevertheless there is a difference in letting a bechamel simmer for 20-30 minutes as opposed to three minutes.

Anyway to get a nice white bechamel use clarified butter to make the roux. It's better if you can get butter without the annato color. Use a stainless steel pot like Greg says. If the color changes that means you're burning stuff. Simmer it on low heat. Sugars don't caramelize at 212 degrees F. Just watch it and have a little cold milk on the side to knock it down if you see it starting to boil.

Kuan