Veal Stock and demi-glace

[skilletlicker]

Travisbickle,
You are a gentleman and a scholar and I am in your debt.

Plongeur,
Ok, so that explains the small % of foot to finished product in Chef Kaiser's formula. Would it matter whether a hoof came from a calf, cow or steer? If the butcher happened to be out of hoof what alternative sources of collagen would you ask for? Is the hoof used only to develop the stock into demi-glace or would you use it to make the stock as well? Is this a cost saving ingredient as opposed to say the collagen that might come from a hip or shoulder joint?

[travisbickle]

Originally Posted by Plongeur

Veal foot is hoof. You want them in your stock because they add collagen, the protein that thickens your stock.

Plongeur helped with the science to a point. The idea is that you want to get the best for your money, even when you are just buying bones. The gelatin...that's the good stuff...along with a good roasting! Point being, be picky! Even when you are buying bones. If you ask for "cleavered" bones, inspect them before you hand them your money. Be shrewd. If you have any friends that are professional cooks, ask them to take you on a "field trip" one day...with promise of much beer and food later...in order to learn first hand, walking through a market. Have fun with it!

[travisbickle]

Originally Posted by skilletlicker

Travisbickle,
Veal stock like light syrup hot on the stove and jello in the ice box?

Yes! Exactly!

[travisbickle]

Originally Posted by skilletlicker

Travisbickle,
You are a gentleman and a scholar and I am in your debt.

Plongeur,
Ok, so that explains the small % of foot to finished product in Chef Kaiser's formula. Would it matter whether a hoof came from a calf, cow or steer? If the butcher happened to be out of hoof what alternative sources of collagen would you ask for? Is the hoof used only to develop the stock into demi-glace or would you use it to make the stock as well? Is this a cost saving ingredient as opposed to say the collagen that might come from a hip or shoulder joint?

Skillet...you want what's inside the bones mostly. Leg bones cut small...those are "candy" (All P.E.T.A. memebers, plug your ears, and take a huge bite of delicious, young veal chop. Has the Earth crumbled yet? Oh...maybe it's those weapons of mass destruction that will kill us all and not the consumption of animal product that we should worry about? MAKE VEAL STOCK!!! Veal chops, center cut pork loin stuffed with aged gouds and bacon; leg of lamb stuffed with feta and wrapped with applewood smoked bacon...If it tastes good, EAT IT! Life is short.

[skilletlicker]

Dan,
Good to hear from you!

Let your butcher know how ignorant you are. If you try to BS him with knowledge you don't have...he's likely to hand you only what you order. But ask him a question that your not sure of...he may give you a lesson as well

As you well know, I have no aversion to public confessions of ignorance. Generally, however, I prefer others to call it a lack of knowledge.

[Chef Kaiser]

Originally Posted by travisbickle

Hey Skillet...Yeah, man you want the bones that are cleavered in a way that the marrow will seep out whille they are roasting. "Feet"??? I've never ordred feet from my supplier. When it comes to veal bones, I say: "Cleavered bones". Because when you roast them, you want to pull out the marrow and at the same time, color the outside of the bone. The marrow will want to stick to your roasting pan. So after you remove the bones to your stock pot, you deglaze your roasting pan (I like a nice dry red wine that I would actualy drink...) and scrape up all those great little bits ad add them to your stock.

I don't know where you would want "feet". Unless...you were going to pickle them and sell them to tourists as a delicasy?

hi,

well myself i am not that much after the bone marrow, i am after the protein in the bones and the tendons. That is what gives you a nice meat glaze after reducing. the best bones and tendons are the once of young animals.

well each has its own way.

regards

[Chef Kaiser]

Lets clarify the terminologies of “Calves Feet”

It seems that you don’t see that in your butcher shops any more. However you may still have the pig’s trotter or also called fore foot and hind foot (American meat buyers guide).


The calf feet is basically the same part and has still the skin on. You don’t eat this part, as it consists basically only of bone and skin, however is loaded with protein and therefore ideal for the preparation of white or brown veal stocks or demi – glace.

The whole veal shank - well if you can afford, it can be used too, but I rather would make Osso Buco from it, or use the bones of it only for the veal stock.


Regards

[foodpump]

Like I mentioned in my other posts, if you don't have calves feet, you can use turkey or chicken wing tips. These too, are loaded with collagen and will lend the smooth suave texture and natural gelatine you're after.

You can also use pigs feet, which are easier to find. These would be be split down the middle (meat bandsaw) and blanched first. However. However pork is pork. I have worked in S.E Asia and respect the religous views of the Muslims, I also respect the religous views of the Jews. Don't know who will be eating my sauce, so in my kitchen I won't use it for this reason only. If it's for your private use, why not?

[travisbickle]

Foodpump...good point. You can make a delicious roasted poultry stock in the same manner you would make a veal stock using the backs and necks of the birds. I have also made wonderful vegetable stocks with roasted product, but you don't get lovely gelatin goodness as if you used animal protein.

[skilletlicker]

Thanks to everybody who spent part of last night helping me figure out what cut of veal to ask for.
The search mission today included two meat markets, including the one generally acknowledged to be the "best in town," two major and one minor chain mega-markets, a Mexican grocery with a meat counter, a Middle Eastern grocery with a meat counter and one membership only warehouse store.
Not one establishment had any veal whatsoever. Three places are going to order it but I'm not too hopeful. Two of them didn't know what veal is and neither my Spanish nor Farsi was good enough to explain it. Truth is, I don't even know what it is in English (young over-fed cattle?).

[Chef Kaiser]

Originally Posted by foodpump

Like I mentioned in my other posts, if you don't have calves feet, you can use turkey or chicken wing tips. These too, are loaded with collagen and will lend the smooth suave texture and natural gelatine you're after.

You can also use pigs feet, which are easier to find. These would be be split down the middle (meat bandsaw) and blanched first. However. However pork is pork. I have worked in S.E Asia and respect the religous views of the Muslims, I also respect the religous views of the Jews. Don't know who will be eating my sauce, so in my kitchen I won't use it for this reason only. If it's for your private use, why not?

hi Foodpump,

i absolutley agree. Further i can add for those who can not get veal bones that easy, use beef bones, like we use out here very often or better said mainly, as veal bones are imported and bloody expensive. Just make sure get as much joint bones + tendons (cut in walnut size) as possible and ensure to roast them very well. If done right you get a good base stock or sauce (demi glace). Note: it is very important to cut the bones and tendons in small pieces if you use beef bones, as the result is better.

regards

[skilletlicker]

Originally Posted by Chef Kaiser

Further i can add for those who can not get veal bones that easy, use beef bones, like we use out here very often or better said mainly, as veal bones are imported and bloody expensive. Just make sure get as much joint bones + tendons (cut in walnut size) as possible and ensure to roast them very well.

The incredible thing is, the meat markets don't have the joints. They get their meats butchered in chunks between the joints and all they do is slice it. This was explained to me today by a meat manager in the higher end megamart I went to. I asked him for a beef hip or shoulder joint. He looked at me funny and led me to the rump roasts. I said where's the joint. He said we don't get that part. I asked for a knee or elbow. He said he just gets a piece butchered above the knee and below the hip. I can buy beef shanks or oxtails. So far, thats as close as I've been able to get.

[skilletlicker]

Charlie's is the meat market that literally everyone I've talked to says is the best. They've been in business here since since 1967. They were my first stop today. Tonight I was thinking maybe I didn't ask them about beef joints like I did the super market manager because I was still hoping to find veal. I just called back and talked to Charlie's son Chuck who explained that they haven't had swinging beef in years. I asked about my options and he reminded be of short ribs which can be added to the short list including shanks and oxtails. He also gave me the name of a buddy in an adjoining county who does custom slaughters and might have joints to dispose of. Those were the whole extent of his suggestions.

Folks out there - is this the same where you live? Have we found a need waiting for some entrepreneur to fill?

[foodpump]

Skilletlicker: Now we've done it, we've gone and got you hooked!

Remember James Garner in "The Great Escape"? Well, that's what alot of us Chefs are like: Constantly angling and scheming to find the best stuff, original stuff, certified organic stuff, hormone free stuff, the best prices; sales reps who don't slobber all over you, treat you like garbage, or think you don't know anything. But I'm not complaining, it's a fun challange, the longer you're in the game the more you learn about everything, and the more contacts you make.

Sounds like you're off to a good start. Chuck's giving you genuine information and isn't brushing you off, keep him in your "active" file. Just because he doesn't have what you want right now, doesn't mean he won't have what you want,-or know where to get what-, later on.

Main thing is to have fun. If you aren't having fun then it's work, and that's no fun...

[skilletlicker]

Originally Posted by Chef Kaiser

hi Foodpump,

i absolutley agree. Further i can add for those who can not get veal bones that easy, use beef bones, like we use out here very often or better said mainly, as veal bones are imported and bloody expensive. Just make sure get as much joint bones + tendons (cut in walnut size) as possible and ensure to roast them very well. If done right you get a good base stock or sauce (demi glace). Note: it is very important to cut the bones and tendons in small pieces if you use beef bones, as the result is better.

regards

Gentlemen,

My team got knocked out of the NCAA tourney so I've got time on my hands tonight. I can't get veal and I can't get beef joints but what do you think of this plan? Isn't there a lot of collagen drawn out of braised chuck roast. I love shredded braised chuck. Would the leftover liquid simmered for a few hours with roasted beef shank bones and a few veggies be anything near to a decent brown stock?