Veal Stock and demi-glace

[Chef Kaiser]

Originally Posted by skilletlicker

Gentlemen,

My team got knocked out of the NCAA tourney so I've got time on my hands tonight. I can't get veal and I can't get beef joints but what do you think of this plan? Isn't there a lot of collagen drawn out of braised chuck roast. I love shredded braised chuck. Would the leftover liquid simmered for a few hours with roasted beef shank bones and a few veggies be anything near to a decent brown stock?

hi,

sure go ahead, and later once you can get bones, try out all recommendations given above.

regards

[deltadoc]

Originally Posted by travisbickle

Skillet...A true demi is a reduction of the veal stock with a secondary mire poix. Glace means glass. It should shimmer like a mirror, which means no cheating!!! I.E.; NO FLOUR! NO STARCH! This is a true reduction

Uh...by whose definition is a "true demi" a reduction of veal stock with a secondary mire poix and no flour or starch? Certainly not Escoffier...his recipe is to make the stock, then make the Espagnole sauce which is stock with mirepoix and roux (starch and fat), then equal parts of Espagnole and Stock reduced down with the addition of some dry wine (different editions specify different dry wines Sherry, etc.)

doc

[Nentony]

Skilletlicket, your butcher or grocer should be able to order them for you, if they care to make the effort. Also, if your friendly with any local restaurants, they can order from their supplier, like Sysco, etc. Thats what I do.

Tony

[Chef Kaiser]

Originally Posted by deltadoc

Uh...by whose definition is a "true demi" a reduction of veal stock with a secondary mire poix and no flour or starch? Certainly not Escoffier...his recipe is to make the stock, then make the Espagnole sauce which is stock with mirepoix and roux (starch and fat), then equal parts of Espagnole and Stock reduced down with the addition of some dry wine (different editions specify different dry wines Sherry, etc.)

doc

Dear Deltadoc,

Would it be possible to know the book, you get the recipe from, of what you are saying is a Demi - Glace. It would be interesting to know, as it seems, that my chef 30 years ago (he was 40 at the time and a culinary crafts teacher in Switzerland too for more than 30 years before he retired just the other year) did teach me wrong. Further all the other Swiss Chefs since would practize the wrong recipe too. Actually most German and Austrain Chefs would all do it wrong too, as all our apprentice books in the 3 year culinary appreticeship program in the three countries mention the same base recipe of the Demi - Glace.

Regards

[deltadoc]

Originally Posted by Chef Kaiser

Dear Deltadoc,

Would it be possible to know the book, you get the recipe from, of what you are saying is a Demi - Glace.
Regards

To answer your question, the source of the recipe is:

The Escoffier Cook Book and guide to the Fine Art of Cookery (An American translation of the definitive Guide Culinaire)

Crown Publishers, 1969

Recipe 22 Espagnole Sauce (annotated for brevity sake)
1 lb of brown roux dissolved in 6 qts. of brown stock, eventually adding tomatoes and about 1 lb of Mirepoix

Recipe 23 Half Glaze (Demi-Glace) (Slightly annotated for brevity's sake)
Obtained by reducing about 1 Qt. of Espagnole Sauce and 1 Qt of first-class brown stock until its volume is reduced to 9/10's of 1 Qt. to which you add 1/10 Qt of fine Sherry.

Regards,
doc

[Plongeur]

The point about veal, as opposed to cow, feet (hooves, OK) is that they're younger and haven't developed into hard bone - young veal bones are still growing and are full of collagen, which is what will make your stock nice and jellified when you reduce it, give it body. Anthony Bourdain has a nice recipe for it which doesn't take for ever in his Les Halles cookbook, sensible quantities for the home cook.

[skilletlicker]

Originally Posted by Plongeur

The point about veal, as opposed to cow, feet (hooves, OK) is that they're younger and haven't developed into hard bone - young veal bones are still growing and are full of collagen, which is what will make your stock nice and jellified when you reduce it, give it body. Anthony Bourdain has a nice recipe for it which doesn't take for ever in his Les Halles cookbook, sensible quantities for the home cook.

Plongeur, I appreciate your suggestion but I've quit the veal hunt. Honestly, I've found wives with less effort than I put into that search.

Any suggestions on developing a decent brown stock with what is available to the average retail shopper in middle America would be a great service to many!

[deltadoc]

It might be cost prohibitive due to shipping, but Venison America gets 50lb boxes of veal bones from New Zealand where they're raised without antibiotics and that kind of stuff. They ship anywhere. They deliver to the Twin Cities on a regular basis, so I've made my veal stock from that lately.

www.venisonamerica.com

However, before going strictly with veal stock, I used to use Beef neck bones for beef stock. The combination of meat and bone gave a pretty good tasting stock. As Wayne Gisslen points out in his Professional Cooking, stocks used to be always made with meat and bones, but because of the higher cost of meat these days, many are using only the bones.

I was wary of that, but have found that I get a great stock (veal anyways) without using any veal meat (I used to make a beef stock from beef neck bones side by side on the cooktop with a veal stock from veal neck bones, but the source for veal neck bones dried up and I got nervous about mad cow and beef neck bones. The Beef Council informed me that young cows can't catch mad cow, so, assuming they're telling me the truth I feel safer with the veal only).

Anyway, my first attempts at Espagnole sauce made from these combined beef and veal stocks and then turning that into Demi-glace, I've decided that my demi-glace made strictly from the veal bones is much more delicate and haute cuisine.

doc

[Ma Facon]

After all the discussion dust settles, Do yourself a favor and create a stock that fits your needs/budget. Recipes are nothing but someone elses guidelines. Enjoy what YOU want to cook and the **** with the rest. You will be a better cook for it. Although most will have a difficult time digesting this view, Just remember that they are most likely stuck in a rut/the past etc... Live today and create the food you want to enjoy and share the results with others. More good will come out of the mistakes that you make than anyones opinion of what THEY think. After all you are unique as what hits the plate.

[deltadoc]

SO, with that said, back to the easy to make middle america stock. Try Joy of Cooking, they have two brown stock recipes. One from bones, and one from browned meat. Pretty simple and it's where I started out learning to make stock.

doc

[Ma Facon]

Let the light of new shine bright upon your decisions.

[skilletlicker]

Originally Posted by Ma Facon

... Enjoy what YOU want to cook and the **** with the rest. .

MAAAaaaAAA! If you tell them I don't give a **** what they think, they won't tell their secrets!

[Chef Kaiser]

Originally Posted by deltadoc

To answer your question, the source of the recipe is:

The Escoffier Cook Book and guide to the Fine Art of Cookery (An American translation of the definitive Guide Culinaire)

Crown Publishers, 1969

Recipe 22 Espagnole Sauce (annotated for brevity sake)
1 lb of brown roux dissolved in 6 qts. of brown stock, eventually adding tomatoes and about 1 lb of Mirepoix

Recipe 23 Half Glaze (Demi-Glace) (Slightly annotated for brevity's sake)
Obtained by reducing about 1 Qt. of Espagnole Sauce and 1 Qt of first-class brown stock until its volume is reduced to 9/10's of 1 Qt. to which you add 1/10 Qt of fine Sherry.

Regards,
doc

Doc,

Doc did you look at the demi - glace recipe i posted in cooking basic? if you carefully study it, the ingredietns i listed are actually your two recipes combined (with the exception of the Sherry), what we call a demi glace too. Except we dust the bones with flour and as there is fat from the bones, well that gives you a roux too, isnt it. (note the old traditional recipe, also lists clarified butter)

However the pocedure you mentioned with out binding with starch and say it is a demi glace, is for us a roasting jus. When we roast tender meats, we add a matignon 15 - 20 minutes before the meat is roasted, remove the meat and form there we roast the vegetables until brown, deglace with wine, add brown veal stock and reduce to desired consistency, strain, flavor, season to taste and at times monte with butter and serve.

regards

[deltadoc]

Originally Posted by Chef Kaiser

Doc,

However the pocedure you mentioned with out binding with starch and say it is a demi glace, is for us a roasting jus. When we roast tender meats, we add a matignon 15 - 20 minutes before the meat is roasted, remove the meat and form there we roast the vegetables until brown, deglace with wine, add brown veal stock and reduce to desired consistency, strain, flavor, season to taste and at times monte with butter and serve.

regards

Chef Kaiser,
You asked me for the source of my recipes of Escoffier.

I provided you the recipes from the Escoffier cookbook. He called it what he called it, not me. I just repeated what I read. I take no credit for any of it.

doc

[Chef Kaiser]

Originally Posted by deltadoc

Chef Kaiser,
You asked me for the source of my recipes of Escoffier.

I provided you the recipes from the Escoffier cookbook. He called it what he called it, not me. I just repeated what I read. I take no credit for any of it.

doc

hi doc,

thank, no misunderstanding, appreciated. In my 5th edition French copy (Escoffier), they dont add Sherry they add a young Madeira.

regards