Chicken Stock Question - Mine's Dark!

[shel]

This morning I took a cruise around the web and found a few sites that seem to warrant reading. At each site there was at least one point or piece of information that looked to be new and/or useful, not only wrt this thread but for making stock in general. Perhaps you'll find something helpful at one of these sites:

http://www.chowhound.com/topics/348605
http://www.rusticocooking.com/techniques.htm
http://countingsheep.typepad.com/amu...n_stock_t.html
http://www.reluctantgourmet.com/stock_reductions.htm
http://www.parshift.com/ovens/Secrets/secrets025.htm
http://www.tigersandstrawberries.com...-and-the-ugly/

Shel

[Chad Aaland]

PRobably most everybody in this thread knows, but because it hasn't been said I'll point it out.

The main difference between a stock and a broth is that a stock is made with bones or bones that have a little meat and a broth is made with full pieces of meat with bones...or even just the meat itself.

[greyeaglem]

4-5 whole allspice berries is about right. I also forgot to tell you to remove them before serving, but I figured you knew that anyway. Egg shade is a yellow food coloring. That's what it's called, for reasons unknown to me. If you tell your supplier you want egg shade, they will know what you mean.

[Thecooktoo]

I taught a three hour Knife Skills Class on Saturday. When I arrived back at the house I had a whole bunch of stuff that the students had done their practice cuts on, including about 8 pounds of, peeled, diced onion, 4 pounds of peeled, diced carrots and 2 pounds of diced celery. Oh, and also seven chicken backs, carcases and 14 wings. Put it all in an 8 gallon pot (actually a large Mirro Pressure Cooker (did not use the lid), put it on low heat, put the chicken in the bottom, layered the onions, celery and carrots, added 6 or 8 springs of fresh thyme, 6 or 8 bay leaves and a handful of black peppercorns. Took about three hours to get up to a simmer - put it on at about 6 pm, continually skimmed the scum as it was heating up, let it simmer overnight, turned it off when I got up Sunday morning. Set it outside in the snow till late yesterday afternoon, strained it through a colander, then a fine mesh strainer then cheese cloth.

The strained stock is a little cloudy, but will settle out before I package it to freeze. It is a medium yellow in color and has great flavor. No salt, garlic or other flavors included.

Great thing about teaching these knife skill classes every three months or so, is that I get to get lots of veggies and chicken cut up for the stock, feed the students the legs and thighs that they separate from the carcass and save and freeze the boneles, skinless breasts for another cooking class later.


Jim

[Joyfull]

Originally Posted by shel

This morning I took a cruise around the web and found a few sites that seem to warrant reading. At each site there was at least one point or piece of information that looked to be new and/or useful, not only wrt this thread but for making stock in general. Perhaps you'll find something helpful at one of these sites:

http://www.chowhound.com/topics/348605
http://www.rusticocooking.com/techniques.htm
http://countingsheep.typepad.com/amu...n_stock_t.html
http://www.reluctantgourmet.com/stock_reductions.htm
http://www.parshift.com/ovens/Secrets/secrets025.htm
http://www.tigersandstrawberries.com...-and-the-ugly/

Shel

This one is pretty good too..

http://allrecipes.com/HowTo/Making-C...ck/detail.aspx

[gonefishin]

eG Forums stocks and sauces class

Stocks and Sauces

Q&A

Simmering the basic stocks


Q&A

Unit 3

Q&A

[Someday]

When you say dark, do you mean dark like brownish, or dark like a deep dark yellow? If you are concerned that it is darker than in some of the other places you have seen it...don't be. More than likely those places used almost exclusively bones with little or no meat. It gives you the gelatin but a much milder chicken flavor. If your stock is a nice, rich yellow/gold color, I wouldn't sweat it. Thats probably normal with using a lot of meat. What you made seems to be more of a combo broth/stock, which is awesome for soups, stews, etc. It just has maybe a little too much chicken flavor for general restaurant use, and/or they have other uses for the meat.

What proportion of meat/bones do you use? Do you cut up a whole chicken, or do you use only chicken bones? Do you seperate the meat from the bones, or just use the thighs? Are your backs and necks hacked up, or intact?

It could be a combination of the dark meat from the thighs, as well as things like blood and/or marrow in the backs and necks that darken it, though I tend to think not...just throwing ideas out there.

BTW: Did you try adding the veg for the last 1 hour of cooking only yet? I know that was discussed in another thread, but I'm curious to see if you notice a difference. I think at the end of the day you will like it more.

On a side note, I also wouldn't add any herbs, spices, etc to my stock. As you seem aware of, those things can always be added later and IMO don't have a place in a base stock. I keep mine nice and neutral, with just the mirepoix aroma and the meat/bones. I don't even put a satchet or bouquet or anything.

You could also do a clarification once the stock is made. It will give you a nice crystal clear broth.

Again, if there is nothing wrong with the flavor, why change it?

[gonefishin]

I'm going to try adding the vegetables in the last hour (like you and others have suggested). I think the carrots may have alot to do with it. I usually use two whole birds (cut of the breasts) and a few thighs or wings (whatever is on sale) if the chickens are small.

dan

[shel]

Originally Posted by Someday

When you say dark, do you mean dark like brownish, or dark like a deep dark yellow? If you are concerned that it is darker than in some of the other places you have seen it...don't be. More than likely those places used almost exclusively bones with little or no meat. It gives you the gelatin but a much milder chicken flavor. If your stock is a nice, rich yellow/gold color, I wouldn't sweat it. Thats probably normal with using a lot of meat. What you made seems to be more of a combo broth/stock, which is awesome for soups, stews, etc. It just has maybe a little too much chicken flavor for general restaurant use, and/or they have other uses for the meat.

What proportion of meat/bones do you use? Do you cut up a whole chicken, or do you use only chicken bones? Do you seperate the meat from the bones, or just use the thighs? Are your backs and necks hacked up, or intact?

It could be a combination of the dark meat from the thighs, as well as things like blood and/or marrow in the backs and necks that darken it, though I tend to think not...just throwing ideas out there.

BTW: Did you try adding the veg for the last 1 hour of cooking only yet? I know that was discussed in another thread, but I'm curious to see if you notice a difference. I think at the end of the day you will like it more.

On a side note, I also wouldn't add any herbs, spices, etc to my stock. As you seem aware of, those things can always be added later and IMO don't have a place in a base stock. I keep mine nice and neutral, with just the mirepoix aroma and the meat/bones. I don't even put a satchet or bouquet or anything.

You could also do a clarification once the stock is made. It will give you a nice crystal clear broth.

Again, if there is nothing wrong with the flavor, why change it?

Well, it was a brownish-yellow, or yellowish-brown, and for esthetic purposes in some situations I was hoping to get a lighter, brighter yellow yet maintain the same deep, rich flavor I usually get. Frankly, for most, if not all of my home use, the color is of little consequence. Still, I want to understand the subtleties of making stock so that I can control the result more better for different situations.

The backs are sometimes put into the pot whole, sometimes broken in two. I don't often use the necks as I have uses for them outside of the stock. For the most part I use chicken pieces, mostly thighs, legs, backs, and sometimes breast bones with a little meat on them that my poultry purveyor gives away free. Sometimes I'll add a few thigh bones, or maybe wings - so the answer is that it depends on what's been saved up in the freezer and what's on sale. A few times I've gotten good deals on whole chickens, and will make a stock using one or two plus whatever else is around.

I can't recall ever using anything but a classic mirepoix, although not always in the classic proportions by the time the veggies are trimmed, or depending on what's in the fridge. Heck, I only recently learned of the classic proportions. However, this thread has given me the impetus to more accurately weigh/measure those ingredients. Sometimes I'll add a Turkish bay leaf or two, depending on their size, but never Bay Laurel, and rarely a clove or two of garlic, depending on what the ultimate us of the stock might be. Likewise pepper, bouquet garnis or sachets, and those infamous sprigs of parsley - although two or thre sprigs sometimes towards the end of "brewing."

Shel

[greyeaglem]

Now that I'm reading more of this, it sounds like the problem isn't that your stock is dark, but pale. Let me know if this is a wrong assumtion. Chicken stock in the past could be quite yellow because they used older stewing hens for stock. Older chickens had a deeper yellow fat, and that's what gave the stock it's yellow color. Almost nobody uses stewing hens any more, so there's nothing there other than carrots to give the stock a natural yellow color. The truth is, the only way I know to get that bright yellow is the chicken feet I mentioned in an earlier post, or coloring from either chicken base or food color. There might be and probably are other ingredients that would add yellow color, but I don't know what they'd be. Someone else might have some ides.

[gonefishin]

Huh...I just got done simmering one whole chicken (breasts cut off) and four thighs for five hours. Nothing else in there. My stock was a tint of yellow, but almost clear. Full of chicken flavor. I've now no doubt that the deep dark color I was getting was due to the vegetables (carrots etc.) and the time I was simmering them.

My reasons for simmering the chicken alone was just to see how much "color" had been added from the vegetables, which I found out.

dan

[nofifi]

Ok, I'm reading all this advice and now I'm really confused, lol. When I make stock, I use a stewing hen if I can get one, throw beef bones and beef in and sometimes oxtail if I can get them. I then throw in some meatballs.
(I know that sounds strange) but everyone who ever tastes my soups swear it's the best they ever had. I also throw in vegetables, onions, etc. I have to skim alot but the end result the next day is really worth the work. I also have several soups, beef, meatball, chicken soup, oxtail and vegetable all from one pot. (this saves me a ton of time in the long run and I have several soups from this one pot). I also take what I thought was plain broth (I use it as broth but I dilute it alittle). So...here's my questions?

why doesn't any one use stewing hens anymore? Is it the fat content or what? What I'm doing with the stock by diluting and straining it alot isn't broth??? See what you profesionals teach an old woman? lol.

[Someday]

There is nothing wrong with what you are doing nofifi. Just making an all purpose, flavorful stock for soups--sounds fine to me.

A lot of people like to seperate their "animals" for stock...beef/veal, chicken, fish, etc. In a professional kitchen they all have different applications, but at home I imagine they make an excellent base for soup.

Stewing hens, from what I know, are great for flavor but lack the gelatin necessary for a truly great stock. You don't notice because you add beef bones, oxtails, etc, but a general rule of thumb is the younger the animal the more collagen it will have in the bones.

Generally speaking, a broth is made from meat, and a stock is made from bones. You make a kind of hybrid, which again is fine, but might not necessarily find it's way into a pro kitchen.

You cna invite me over for dinner anytime you want, though...sounds like a great pot of soup.

[nofifi]

Come on down, Someday, there's always soup in the freezer here, lol. Thanks for the difference between a young chickie and an old hen....funny how that plays out in real life too, us old hens do have more flavor, just less geletin in our bones, lol. Not bragging here but it really does make great
soup(s). I strain some of it over and over and dilute it and use it for chicken/beef broth for most of my dishes that need broth and it works well. It would probably be way to expensive to use in a commercial kitchen also. A 20 qt. soup pot usually costs me around $40 but again, it's really not expensive when you consider all the soups involved and the servings. I learned very young watching Julia Child NEVER throw away those bones, etc. My friends know that when they carve that turkey or ham, that I get the bones before they reach the table, lol.

[greyeaglem]

The reason most kitchens don't use stewing hens any more is lack of availability. In a larger city you might have a supplier who would handle them, but most general restaurant suppliers don't. Not much demand I suppose. That, and I think Campbell's buys them all (ha, ha!). Restaurants really don't prepare food the way they did when I was first in this business. Now, if they don't buy their soup frozen, they're likely to make it with frozen cubed chicken and chicken base with pre-cut, vacuum packed mire poix. The public doesn't seem to mind, and it's all about cost and profit. Labor being a high cost, it gets cut at every turn. Interestingly, there are some doctors who treat arthritis that feel the disease is on the rise due to current cooking trends where everything is cooked boneless.