Perfect Apple Pie

[Anneke]

A 'mealy' crust? I'm not sure I understand what that means...
I always make an all-butter crust because I prefer the flavour. If I were producing commercially, I probably wouldn't. For this last pie I made, I completely forgot to use a thickener, but ultimately it didn't matter because there was virtually no liquid to speak of. I polished off the last piece last night.
.....MMMmmmmmmmmmm Love that ginger-vanilla combo... I nuked it for a minute and it softened the apples right up.

I've never heard of anyone pre-cooking their apples until this year. I thought I was a bit kooky for thinking of doing it that way, but now it seems everybody's doing it. Have apples been getting harder over the years? What's going on?!?!

[Isa]

Good point Wendy. pre cooking the apple to reduce the volume loss is a great idea. It will proove specially useful when making a deep dish apple pie.

[W.DeBord]

Being a pastry chef you should know how to bake something as simple as a apple pie. But I have to admit I've had more failures over the years with this item then the most complicated desserts you can think of! One year my apples in my Thanksgiving pies turned out to have so much moisture in them that my thickener couldn't keep-up, I was so embarrassed I could have died! It was too late to fix the problem when I discovered it that year. But since that bad day I've made it my mission to never let that happen to me again.

So I've read and tried many recipes over the years to master this item (although it's always a work in progess). Just recently I bought Wayne Glissens book and he gives more detail then any other source I've found on this topic.

So here's what I've learned from his book:

There are two type of pie doughs. Flaky, where you hardly rub your fat into your flour. Mealy where you blend in the fat until it's like course cornmeal. This makes a VERY SHORT crust, "the baked dough is less likely to absorb moisture from the filling and become soggy". Adding butter or not to your crust, is another topic (I've just change my mind after using his crust). He gives slightly different formulas for each.

What he writes about "The soggy bottom"...

1. Use mealy dough for bottom crusts and flaky for the top.
2. Use high heat, at least at the beginning of baking to set the crust. He uses 425 thru out the bake (I confirm keeping that temp. with my last pie was really successful).
3. Do not add hot fillings to unbaked crusts.
4. You can layer the bottom of the pie shell with cake crumbs.
5. Use dark metal pie tins which absorb more heat.

Here's what he says about the "old-Fashioned method" for apple pie fillings (which is using raw apples in your pie). "This method is commonly used for homemade apple pies and peach pies. However, it is not often used in food service operations because of it's disadvantages. First, the thickening of the juices is more difficult to control. Second, because raw fruit shrinks as it cooks, it is necessary to pile the fruit high in the shell. The fruit then shrinks, often leaving a large air space between the crust and the fruit, and the top crust becomes misshappen. The juices given off are more likely to boil over than when the filling is cooked and the juice thickened before filling the pie.
For these reasons, the cooked fruit method usually gives better results than the old fashioned method." (He also has some other interesting facts/notes but I've already talked too much about this topic....)

I'm so happy I finally read a source that confirms what I kept noticing. I haven't found any other published source that talks about the whys like this.

[Elsie]

W., That is the book we are using in Fundamentals of Baking (first semester baking class), and I have made that exact pie you are talking about (the old-fashioned method). It turned out well, both at home and at school, with the liquid nice and thick.
The biggest thing I learned was that our teacher told us that when the pie is ready, you should be able to hold the pie and gently tip it to the side -- if any juice comes out, it's not ready. The liquid was nice and thick, and the apples held their shape (Granny Smiths). We also did it with a streusel topping rather than a top crust.

Anyway, it's good to know that a real, working professional has faith in the books I'm using in school!

I have to make that crust tomorrow for mid-term practicals.

Elsie

[thebighat]

I may have seen it mentioned in OTHER not-so-confusing bulletin board (I'm sure I'll get used to this new look) but the Pie and Pastry Bible by Rose Levy B. has a neat way of thickening the apple juices. she lets the apples sit with the sugar and collects the juices and then boils them down. I've tried it and it works well. The main thing it does is help reduce the amount of starch of whatever kind you're using.
The thing with the mealy crust is that you have to make two batches of dough, or remove half from the bowl while the fat is still in large pieces to save for the flaky crust, and rub the fat in further to get the mealy crust in the other half. Then you'd have to either weigh the two, or guess at the water.
I use a hot oven, lots of bottom heat, and pyrex pans. I can see when the bottom crust is done. I also use half shortening and half butter and get good flakiness and flavor.

[Marzoli]

I would like to see the recipe!

[W.DeBord]

The recipes for the crust or the filling Sandy?

Good points TheBighat. Momoreg said she uses that method (from the cake bible) for her apples. It's basicly the same thing as precooking, drain out your liquids and thickening them seperately (I'll have to try that next time!). The mealy dough vs flaky won't be a problem in a comercial kitchen. Just keep both in the freezer, pull out what you need....
Does Rose Levy use cornstarch to thicken? Glissen recommended a modified starch (I think) over using cornstarch but says its not something realily available, then use cornstarch.

Elsie I kind of disagree with your instructor or maybe something got lost in the conversation. As far as when to pull it out of the oven.... You pretty much have to let the crust call the play. When the bottom is done...because the top and the apples are done at about the same time. You'll have to over bake it for there not to be any liquid bubbling up when it's done or over thicken it.

If you tip your pie and you see no filling I personally think you've thickened your filling too much. It should move when tipped. Once the pie cools totally the filling sets and there isn't any loose juice. Maybe you should double check with your instuctor if you'll be tested on this??

[Marzoli]

Both! I'm a complete idiot in the pie department. My mother-in-law gave me a recipe for a cold water crust, but I have not had a chance to try it. I'm just learning all this neat stuff.

[Elsie]

W., No, I'm certain that is what he said. He was very clear about it and demonstrated it to myself and some other classmates. The pie liquid when done was very thick and non-juicy (almost a store-bought consistency?), but I'm glad you made the point about the crust, though. Maybe he just meant that aside from the crust, if the juice is too runny, it's not done?? I know I have a tendency to definitely under-cook my crusts, and this pie could probably have been more done on the bottom.

Elsie

[Kimmie]

I have a recipe for Apple Tourtière that I learned to do at the ITHQ. Puff pastry and Cortland apples, cut into medium-sized cubes, are used in this dish. The apples are sautéed in unsalted butter with extra fine sugar and a vanilla pod until translucent.

Not in the original recipe, I add Calvados and flambée. Yum!

I let the apples cool down before making the pie.

For this particular recipe, I don't use a pie pan. I just lay down parchment paper on a baking sheet and form my tourtière in the middle.

The top of the tourtière is composed of three layers of dough. The recipe is in French and I'm a really bad translator. Would someone volunteer to translate through Private Messaging?


It's really !

[HubUK]

I have been cooking most of my life but until this week had never attempted to make an apple dessert with pastry.

I was so pleased and impressed with the results I achieved that I made a second which we finished tonight (made them Tuesday and Thursday)!

It was so simple and the result looked so good - and the taste! WOW.

If you have ever struggled with this sort of dessert just try making this: Tarte Tatin.

I got the recipe last weekend from Chef Jos Wellman (alias Tallyrand on Hub-UK) and having met the great French chef Michel Roux this time last year whose signature dish it is, I was inspired to have a go.

I will surely do another one either tomorrow or Sunday.

If you want Jos' recipe it is at http://www.hub-uk.com/tallyrecip02/recipe0051.htm

[shroomgirl]

I just asked for leaf lard from the pig being used on Monday's Farmer/chef dinner....I really like the butter/fat combo for flavor and flakiness.
Leaf lard does not have a pork flavor to it at all.....amazingly a couple of the chefs I know that do alot of their own charcuterie scoff when I mention putting lard in pies.......
Anyone else do this? not the scoffing part but the lard/butter combo.

[W.DeBord]

Boy Shroomgirl you always know about things I've never heard of....so then is this leaf lard unprocessed fat? Or does it look and use like crisco shortening? It must be processed for bakers to use it....what about impurities? Some people use the words lard and shortening interchangably, to the best of my knowledge it's two different fats....no?


Yes, I think all professionals agree with using butter and shortening both in their crusts. Sometimes all shortening is how you need to go though....
After trying this recipe I'd use the mealy bottom as written w/out butter and use my reg. flaky top thats close to 50/50 butter, shortening. I actually haven't ever used a all butter pie crust, it's moisture will your flakiness (I've never had the low liquid professional butters, I've always shared dairy with the hot side) and probably be too rich.

P.S. I'll post the recipes for you Sandy when I get a chance...my father had a bad fall and I won't have time for a day or two.

[Mezzaluna]

Wendy, leaf lard, also called la panne, is a sheet of fat covering the loin and enveloping the kidneys. According to Jane Grigson (The Art of Making Sausages, Pates and Other Charcuterie) leaf lard is prepared by having any blood vessels removed, then cut into small cubes or ground (if used for sausages or some pates). Shroomgirl, do you render it anyway for use in pastry? Lard is a product I have no first-hand experience using.

[shroomgirl]

Yep~ render it and use it like Crisco. Amazing stuff!!!