brown stock & fish stock

Thanks to all those who responded to my chicken stock question. Now a very simple brown stock question (as you can tell, I don't have a lot of experience making my own stock). I actually took a class that included stocks and I didn't think to get this straightened out while I was there. When making brown stock, do you use raw bones or formerly cooked bones? I know that before you actually make the stock you throw all of the bones into the oven, but it looked to me like the bones being put in the oven were bones that had been cooked before. As for fish stock - I was told that making my own would stink up the house way too much to make it worthwhile and that most restaurants will actually just use a 50/50 mixture of water and clam juice rather than actual fish stock. Any thoughts? Thanks.

When making any type of brown stock, I rinse the raw bones and then brown them in the oven. I've never seen it done where the bones are cooked in any way before being roasted (blanched, perhaps?), but there are a million different ways to make stock!

As for fish stock, I've never worked in a restaurant where we didn't make our own fish or shrimp stock. Canned clam juice might be an OK substitute for the home cook, but nothing beats a good batch of fish stock! I make it at home whenever I've accumulated enough bones, and yes it does stink up the house a bit during the blanching of the bones, but during the simmering stage it just smells **** good! (And it really shouldn't be cooked for too long - so even if you hate the smell, it will be over fairly quickly.)

Kathleen

[Nick.Shu]

If things are tight at the school, there maybe a reason for reusing the bones there.

With fish stock, it may stink but the actual cooking time is only 20 minutes. Any longer and the stock clouds up and goes bitter.

Canned clam juice?

[cookM]

Originally posted by mmharrin:
As for fish stock - I was told that making my own would stink up the house way too much to make it worthwhile and that most restaurants will actually just use a 50/50 mixture of water and clam juice rather than actual fish stock. Any thoughts? Thanks.

Who told you that? Does that person actually work in a restaurant, and if they do, I have to question the quality of the restaurant. I've never worked in a restaurant where we've used any pre-made stock, fish or meat. We've always made our own fish stock, and I think it smells pretty good myself. Of course, we start with pristine fish frames, and I give them a rinse to get some of the residual blood off. That person is way off to make such a broad statement like that.

[chefjohnpaul]

I agree with cookM on the fish stock. You don't just use any old bones, I mean you wouldn't want to make a fish stock with mackeral bones. Nice fresh halibut bones or other non-oily white fish work best, and you are only simmering a short time, (less than an hour) it actually doesn't stink anything up, at least no worse than chicken or veal. Try it you'll like it!

[lobster]

My understanding on brown stock - you brown the bones to add color and flavor; there is no firm rule that says you have to brown them all. Fish stock - I save fish bones in the freezer until I have enough to make stock (when I can't get enough all at once from the fishmonger) - I stongly agree that your own stock beats any other quick 'replacement' (water and clam juice, etc.) you might want to do. As for 'stinking up the joint' - good stock smells good, and as mentioned before, fish stock doesn't simmer very long before it's done - please make your own - you'll much prefer it to anything else... (I make large quantities and freeze it in various volumes and in ice cube trays).

[UniChef]

Always use fresh bones, do not reuse bones. You want to get the full effect of the marrow.

Also, the reason for browning is two fold, one is for color, the second is to remove impurities, the same as blanching bones for a white stock.

If you are going to a school that uses old bones and canned clam juice for fish stock, you might want to consider dropping out.

Thanks Unichef for your response. I was just taking some recreational classes at the Culinary and Hospitality Institute of Chicago. They do have full degree programs and I don't know if they teach those students the same things as they tought us. They changed some policies which effectively screwed me out of $100 I spent for a couple of classes so I'm not going back to them ever again anyway, but thanks for the caution.

[UniChef]

$100 is not much of a loss, considering some schools cost $30k.

Good luck.

$100 may not be a lot, but like I said, I was just taking some recreational classes and they basically aren't letting me make up the two classes I missed. Before I ever signed up I was assured that I would be able to and they gave me credits for the dates I missed. I won't let it get me too down, but now I'll have to keep hounding everyone here to learn how to cook! But the advice here is friendly, informative and supportive, so I have absolutely 0 complaints about that.

[cape chef]

For fish stock, always use a non oily fish frame, Like halibut witch was already mentioned,It is important to produse a fine fish fumet that the gills and the blood line are removed and that the frames are washed well in cold water. If the head is availible to you, that will give a wonderful gelatinouse property to you stock. always use a white mirapoix and a bouget garni in your stock.it is also important to start your stock with cold water. And simmer gently for about 35 minutes, thats all it needs. be gentle when straining as to not get to much sediment jumping around and use a chinoise with rinsed cheese cloth. I also believe that a fine fish fumet does not stink up your kitchen, it should smell clean and lightly aromatic. As for veal stock agian what you start with will determane your finished stock. always use raw bones and always use bones with a high content of marrow this will give you a wonderful bodied stock.There are a million ways to prepare a veal stock, (so they say) But I would stick to the classic french style of veal stock weather blond or brown

[Chef David Simpson]

I've been doing stocks for a while and
I order the knuckle part of the beef bones
raost at 450 in the convection oven for no
more then 35 minutes. this is mostly done
to remove any bacteria that resides on
the bones and to give flavor and color to
the stock.
As for the fish stock. The other chefs
have explained well.

[cookM]

Originally posted by mmharrin:
I won't let it get me too down, but now I'll have to keep hounding everyone here to learn how to cook! But the advice here is friendly, informative and supportive, so I have absolutely 0 complaints about that.

mmharrin, I want to encourage you to keep on learning. When I first started out, even before I went to cooking school, I read tons of cookbooks and the cooking section of the newspaper, talked to the farmers at the Farmers Mkt., read mags I found at garage sales, went to check out classes at a kitchen supply store, and just went and ate at many good restaurants!
It's great that you have the urge to learn about cooking. Keep on!