Wusthof at Macy's?

[GrlcbrkmyGinsu]

Okay, I'm getting married in June and (as is usual) we have managed to put off registering at until now. I no longer have my old Shun, having given it to my brother a long time ago and I was thinking about getting another knife but just felt it should wait until after the wedding. But, as I was looking through the macy's kitchen selections (my fiancee lets me do the kitchen stuff shopping) I saw a whole selection of Wusthof, Henckels, and Shun. Is this stuff even worth putting on my registry? I've long ago stopped trusting and cutlery bought from a department store and although I'd like to get a new knife to replace the cutco crap I bought off my friend to help him out(I'm really only cooking at home now, having gotten off the line a few years back) I don't know if a Macy's Shun is the same as well, a Shun. Any ideas?

[RPMcMurphy]

they are...just make sure the "series" or models are what you want....Wustoff has a lower grade model they pimp out in some stores a long with say....the classics or Ikons.

[GrlcbrkmyGinsu]

Which brand would you recommend for using with the chef's choice 3-stage model 130 electric sharpener? I want to get another shun (loved my old one) but I'm a little nervous about getting it with an electric sharpener. I used to hand sharpen but I've gotten dull and naturally don't have my stones anymore (gave them away with the knife).

[Craig.723]

I think that you should get a Wusthof because it will be well worth it..I have one and it's the best knife I've used..And because they have more weight, they last longer and are easy to sharpen.

[boar_d_laze]

Yours is an interesting question, because you've already determined your sharpening system, and it's a good one. On the other hand, the CC 130 sharpens at too oblique an angle for Japanese knives. For that matter, it sharpens at too oblique an angle for the modern style of knife sharpening.

If you're going to keep you CC 130 as your only system, you're best with one of the traditional lines from one of the up-market European and American manufacturers. Briefly, F. Dick (1778, 1905, Premier), Henckels (Pro-S), Lamson (Lamsonsharp), Messermeister (Meridian, Mundial), Elephant Sabatier (Stainless French or German) K-Sabatier Victorinox (any stainless) Victorinox (Forged), and of course Wusthof (Classic, Culinair).

The dirty secret on knives from these lines is that other than handles, they're all very much the same. They're all forged. They all have high fit and finish. They all balance more towards the handle than equivalent Japanese style knives. They will all take and hold the edge your CC 130 gives more than adequately. You will be able to make any classic cut your skill allows, other than perhaps "micro-Brunois" (1mm cube).

You can obsess on the differences between Wusthof and Henckels and why Wusthof is better, yadda yadda -- but the actual differences are incredibly slight. Whatever differences in quality used to exist between these manufacturers have long since been resolved.

Lamson and most of the Germans are made from a steel called X45CrMoV, a couple, including Victorinox Forged, are made from X50CrMoV (slightly more carbon, slightly harder), and the French knives are made from something very extremely similar. Other than the French chef's knives, the designs are all extremely similar. The two Sabatiers sell "French profile" chef's knives which are lighter and flatter than the Germans' -- shaped the same as your old Shun, which was also French pattern except the Shun didn't have a bolster plus finger guard which all of these knives do.

The Messermeisters are the nominal value leaders, but it's a highly competitive market with lots of discounts. The F. Dick knives are probably the highest quality and fit and finish -- even better than Wusthof -- with the most attractive handles. Wusthof and Henckels are both safe choices. Don't be fooled by the fact that Henckels are not "fully forged as one piece," that's something that might have mattered in the fifties, but modern manufacturing techniques rendered that difference obsolete long ago. Lamson is just as good.

Of all of these, I prefer the Sabatiers. There is no Sabatier company. Rather there are a lot of companies making knives under names which include the name Sabatier. Some good, some bad. Unfortunately, bad Sabatier flooded the market for many years and the mystique of French knives was lost. However, the good ones are every bit as good as the Germans. K-Sabatier and Elephant Sabatier are two of the best (and available, sort of, in America). Compared to the German knives they are slightly lighter, with the exception of the chef's knife which is much lighter and has a different geometry.

Chef's Choice makes two or three sharpeners suitable for Asian stlyle blades, the 316, the M-15 (which they may not still make) and the 1520 Angle Select. If you can afford one of these -- especially the more expensive M-15 or 1520 -- you can go back to Shuns, to one of the new Asian influenced Europeans, or one of the more exotic Japanese names.

Is it worth it? The Asian types (and I'm talking steel and angles, not Santokus), perform better. They're lighter, they get sharper, and they stay sharper. Other than the Wusthof top lines, they all use French pattern chef's knives which are preferred by most professionals who have used both.

Wusthof makes several better lines than Classic and Culinair. Their best are Le Cordon Bleu and Ikon. Wusthof borrowed from Japanese knife design for both the Le Cordon Bleu and Ikon lines -- shaving the finger guards off the bolsters, thinning the blades, and sharpening them to a more acute angle.

Personally, I don't like the Shuns, but recognize that they make good knives. The Classic, Elites and Ken Onions are significantly better than anything Wusthof has on the market. They'll sharpen sharper, and stay sharper longer. Alton's Angle have good blades, but the offset promotes poor knife technique. Alton's real angle is selling knives.

For Japanese style knives for in your price range, with good American availability, good guarantees, etc., I like the MAC Professional line. Why Mac compared to Shun? Shun actually uses a more exotic steel, and does that nice Damascus look (it's not actually Damascus steel, though). The MAC's are no BS, they balance perfectly, and everyone likes the handle. They are a pro's knife in every way. Personal preference, really.

MAC also makes the world's best bread knife. If you bake, you want it.

If you want to go more in depth about any particular knife line I've mentioned and quite a few I haven't ... just ask.

On. And, congratulations. You don't deserve her,
BDL

[deltadoc]

I have a complete set of "forged" Wusthof Trident Classic White. Hard to find anymore, as they discontinued the white handle.

However, there is a difference in Wusthof knives. The cheaper ones are stamped, not forged.

The forged ones I'm told are far better and much more expensive.

I've had them since 1992, and they are a joy to work with.

doc

[boar_d_laze]

Originally Posted by deltadoc

I have a complete set of "forged" Wusthof Trident Classic White. Hard to find anymore, as they discontinued the white handle.

However, there is a difference in Wusthof knives. The cheaper ones are stamped, not forged.

The forged ones I'm told are far better and much more expensive.

I've had them since 1992, and they are a joy to work with.

doc

If you read my post, you'll see I didn't recommend any of Wusthof's stamped lines -- or any other American or European manufacturer's for that matter. This has everything to do with balance, handle selection, and quality of steel used -- and nothing to do with limitations imposed by the manufacturing processes. The "forged" vs "stamped" war is mostly marketing. Yes, Ginsus are stamped and Wusthof's aren't. But that isn't why Wusthof is better. Misono UX-10s are stamped, so are Ryusen Blazen's and they're as much better than Wusthofs as forged Wusthofs are better than stamped Wusthofs.

At one time, perhaps into the sixties, stamped knives could not be made as well as forged. Now that distinction is not necessarily true. In fact, factory stamping is by and large more precise than factory forging. Many of the best knives in the world are either fully or partially stamped with some "forge welding." Actually, maybe most of the best knives that aren't actually hand forged and work-of-art priced. Of the knives discussed, the stamped group includes the Shuns and the MACs -- both of which are better knives than anything else in the post.

Not to "dis" the Wusties. They're wonderful knives.

The differences between most, if not all knives at this level are subtle. They'll every one of them, do everything most good cooks want with their primary limitations being the skill of the cook and the level of care they receive -- including but not limited to the frequency and quality of their sharpenings and steelings.

If you're a professional cook who uses his chef's knife 10 to 15 times more than an active home cook, the differences are magnified as are the ways they jibe with your personal preferences. Most of my own knives (true, martinet forging) are either knives I actually owned and used decades ago when I cooked for money, or their true, martinet forged equivalents. There are better knives out there, much better for most people. But they aren't better for me, nor even as good.

However, as much as I like them, and for all their actual advantages, I wouldn't recommend antique, carbon French knives to anyone who hadn't already expressed an interest.

BDL

[m brown]

The ones at the department stores are a lesser version. Find a reputable culinary knife dealer.

Sur La Table, JB Prince, Bridge etc.