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06-30-2008, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by les poissioner  I used to be a solid believer in the benefits and superior quality of wild seafood. Now I am starting to see the light. The future of seafood depends on increased production of farmed seafood to meet the growing demands of consumers both here and worldwide. So while promoting farmed seafood we must try to insure that the fish is raised in a sustainable way, does no harm to the environment, and is a superior product. By the way it has been my experience that those aquaculturists that meet the first two requirements are very successful in making the end product taste great. | Indeed...it is amazing to me that even in this allegedly enlightened age, sustainability is not a major factor in everyone's consumptive behaviours...and yes, this includes our buying habits and general perspectives on what is "acceptable". I've been following the threads on tilapia on this forum and it amazes me how many comments/opinions shared are based on little to no information/research. I am proud to be part of a family based, aquaponics start up and philosophically I believe developing and implementing technology which will prevent the nutritional needs of today's human population from destroying...sometimes in an irreversible manner...species and environments which our children will inherit is both conscientious and an urgently needed paradigm shift.
All the negative references to farmed seafood makes me wonder if humanity as a whole has enough collective intelligence to survive in the long term...as the world population doubles in the next 50 years, how will we feed everyone in a sustainable manner? Or should we just fish like there's no tomorrow to satisfy the demand for "wild caught" seafood for everyone TODAY without concern for the future???
Will our cultural evolution of the personal entitlement soceity eventually be our undoing? I wonder...and I sincerely hope such is not the case.
RC  |
07-01-2008, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mydogcisco Indeed...it is amazing to me that even in this allegedly enlightened age, sustainability is not a major factor in everyone's consumptive behaviours...and yes, this includes our buying habits and general perspectives on what is "acceptable". I've been following the threads on tilapia on this forum and it amazes me how many comments/opinions shared are based on little to no information/research. I am proud to be part of a family based, aquaponics start up and philosophically I believe developing and implementing technology which will prevent the nutritional needs of today's human population from destroying...sometimes in an irreversible manner...species and environments which our children will inherit is both conscientious and an urgently needed paradigm shift.
All the negative references to farmed seafood makes me wonder if humanity as a whole has enough collective intelligence to survive in the long term...as the world population doubles in the next 50 years, how will we feed everyone in a sustainable manner? Or should we just fish like there's no tomorrow to satisfy the demand for "wild caught" seafood for everyone TODAY without concern for the future???
Will our cultural evolution of the personal entitlement soceity eventually be our undoing? I wonder...and I sincerely hope such is not the case.
RC | Bravo! The one change I'd make to your message so that it conforms more strictly to the truth is to change the spelling of one word, "whole." The nature of the situation would be better represented if the sentence fragment read, " humanity as a hole..."
Aye, there's the rub,
BDL |
07-01-2008, 11:03 AM
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| | But will they pay?
As always the thoughtfull posts here are looking toward the future. My question is will they pay, or better yet how much is sustainable seafood worth to you? How much more can you charge your customer for sustainable seafood?
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Matthew Hovey
sustainable fishmonger |
07-01-2008, 11:56 AM
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| | How much is sustainable seafood worth to you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by les poissioner As always the thoughtfull posts here are looking toward the future. My question is will they pay, or better yet how much is sustainable seafood worth to you? How much more can you charge your customer for sustainable seafood? | Economics or resource allocation will always drive the viability of any human endeavor...but in the case of food, the extreme possible outcome is that we as a species repeat our mistakes and do not take a broader view of the future result of our actions today. The cultivators of farmed fish and shellfish must find ways to provide these products via a technology/business model that both sufficiently rewards them for their efforts and provides a desirable product at a competitive price. Make no mistake, we are absolutely still in the infancy of commercial aquaculture/aquaponics, but people must begin to realize this makes practical sense from every possible viewpoint...especially Americans. Across the globe there are significant capital investments in aquaculture technology going on...except here in the U.S. of A. Why do you suppose this is? Why do we represent less than 1% of total farmed finfish/shellfish production? Are we comfortable with this form of protein being "farmed" elsewhere with limited capacity of our own domestically?
So...how much is the sustainable aspect worth? I think that's largely irrelevant. The real question is how much longer can the oceans provide healthy, cheap, "wild caught" foodstuffs? Do we wait till the obvious end result hits us proverbially between the eyes? Or do we make an effort to use the grey matter we are blessed with to engineer a sustainable alternative to continuing to impact natures balance? Yes, some harvesting can be helpful or insignificant to natural systems, but for the most part nature's ecosystems have their own checks and balances that absolutely do not require human intervention. The good ol' days of apparent endless supply from nature are over...or will be soon. In some cases, in my lifetime...which I find personally chilling. All I'm suggesting is that we open our eyes and begin to concern ourselves with how our choices TODAY impact our future...the economics are merely a function of innovation and conscious choice.
On a personal level, sustainable food of every kind is very important to me. There is a large system in place behind the scenes that produces and distributes foodstuffs to us all...this system has placed margins, like any business, as priority one. The outcome has been poor practices at times which have impacted both the environment and consumer as well as the producers in the past...all in the name of glowing quarterly financial reports. We can and need to be more holistic than this in our thinking and actions.
Jumping off oversized soapbox now! ;-) Thanks to the thread originator, good discussion...RC |
07-01-2008, 02:14 PM
| | ChefTalk Book Reviewer Culinary Experience: Food Writer | | Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Central Kentucky---where the bluegrass meets the mountains
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>My question is will they pay, or better yet how much is sustainable seafood worth to you?<
I'm sorry, Maybe I'm misreading your question.
Virtually anywhere I've been the past few years, fish labeled "wild caught" carries a premium compared to comparable farmed.
In short, one of it's draws is snob appeal.
Certainly anyone willing to pay $22/lb for wild caught X-fish would be willing to pay $17 for farmed. |
07-01-2008, 02:31 PM
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Actually, sustainable species are usually less expensive than endangered, and farmed are nearly always less expensive than wild.
With the preferred species of Pacific salmon, like King, wild is MUCH better. My guess is that this is as much a function of bad aquaculturing as innate differences. However, this year, for a number of reasons the Pacific salmon runs of the better species will be significantly reduced. So your choice is farmed or the poorhouse.
BDL |
07-01-2008, 03:33 PM
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MyDogCisco-
Interesting to hear somebody in the industry. Could you answer some of the bad allegations I've read about it?
I've heard the farmed fish are laced with antibiotics to prevent disease in the crowded tanks/ponds; that they poison the seafloor with their concentrated droppings, and the salmon/trout are fed dyed food to enhance the color of their flesh.
Tell us it ain't so, Joe! 
Mike
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travelling gourmand |
07-01-2008, 06:10 PM
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| | Farmed serves a purpose- but Salmon was the wrong species to try it with...
I respect all views- and goodness knows there are many represented here. But, if you'll permit me to perhaps over-simplify, there are basically two schools of thought: 1.) the supreme quality of wild fish far surpasses anything farmed, therefore farmed is inferior, 2.) we've got a world full of hungry folks and the number of bellies to feed is ever increasing, so farming most foods including seafood is absolutely necessary.
I respect and understand the reality of BOTH ideas- I really do. However, as a former chef, a former Alaskan, and someone who prefers to eat the very best at home whether that be the best bologna & canned soup- or the best beef & seafood- farmed salmon is to wild salmon to me, as orange cardboard winter "tomatoes" are to August Arkansas Beefsteaks. In other words- not EVEN comparable.
Go ahead, farm fish to feed the hungry masses around the world- but only accept wild salmon as the true best for any discerning gourmet... slap-down a plate of farmed salmon in front of me at a mid level or high end dining establishment where I expect premium quality & finest taste, and try to charge me forty bucks for it, and I'm gonna look at you like you just tried to fool me w/ corn-dog/imitation krab in place of medium-rare beef-tenderloin/king crab for surf & turf. Don't even try it!
One last note: another fine comparison between salmon and tomatos- neither were ever meant to be consumed year 'round. They are each delicious, highest-quality seasonal delicasies to be enjoyed at their peek at random times on the calendar. To wish for the taste of such delicate items of nature's bounty any time you want, any day of the year is gluttonous & irresponsible. I'd rather have just 5 servings of incredible wild salmon, and 5 servings of ripe red juicy summer tomatoes during a tiny appropriate window of time in season, than mediocre fake substitutes every week of every season. But hey- that's just me. |
07-01-2008, 06:22 PM
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chub/griz,
Heard. Understood. Felt. Very well stated.
I will try to answer the following questions with what I understand to be true. I get several trade publications both in my email and snail mail almost daily. And just as often, there has been new research, new studies, new findings and new health warnings from both industry (aquaculture, buyers, retailers, processors) and from NGO's who tell us what not to eat and why. I am elbow deep in this stuff from my customers concerns to my buyers complaints almost daily. When replying to my customers concerns, I always give the pro's and con's as I know them and let them decide from there.
"I've heard the farmed fish are laced with antibiotics to prevent disease in the crowded tanks/ponds; that they poison the seafloor with their concentrated droppings, and the salmon/trout are fed dyed food to enhance the color of their flesh."
Emamectin Benzoate is a USDA approved (take that how you want to) "Pesticide." This pesticide is used to control the sea lice which introduce bacteria (viruses) into the farmed fish which then spreads really quickly throughout the population of fish.
"Don't they use dyes in the fishmeal?" Farmed Salmon is given a carotene (yes, in the same family as beta-carotene which colors the carrot), Astaxanthin. The same carotene that wild salmon eat, but this is man made. The same comparison of vitamin C is man made and an orange comes form a tree. The same Astaxanthin given to Farmed Salmon is sold in vitamin stores for human consumption because this carotene is good for you. If you did not add this suplement to the feed, the salmon would be kind of a translucent grey color. Not very appetizing.
As for the "Droppings," absolutely. But again, this must be taken with a grain-of-salt. Has to do with where the pens are located. Is there good current, is it open ocean, is it closed pen? If it is closed pen, what kind of filtration? How often is it filtered? Where does the post-filter go? No solid answers here.
I am not the biggest fan of Farmed fish. Mostly because of flavor. Then maybe a little about farming practices. In my wildest dreams I can see a future wild salmon fishery that has encompassed the management the Alaskan fisheries are so successful at. With the U.S. importing over 80% of it's consumable fish, there has to be room for aquaculture in order to supplement our growing appetite.
It is very complex issue that deserves more attention than I can give it here.
Once again, I refer to my tag line, "The health benefits of eating fish far out-weigh any risks of eating it."
It is nice to see some educated and thoughtful replies and opinions in this thread. |
07-01-2008, 06:24 PM
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Griz,
What about species other than salmon? Oysters, catfish, tilapia and shrimp are a few of the animals which have been cultured very successfully.
In fact, I had tilapia today as mojarra diabla, from a wonderful Mexican dive called Mi Jacalito (My Little Shack) on Valley in El Monte. Diablo or Diabla is a sauce made from fresh and dried chiles -- incredibly spicy. Somehow they fry the mojarra in such a way that the skin is crisp, the flesh is well done without being too well done, and the flavor of the fish stands up to the sauce. A large fish is served with fries, beans, rice, lettuce with guacamole, and handmade corn tortillas. Did I mention the frosty cans of Tecate with lime and salt? Just a light snack, you understand. One of my favorite things in the world.
BDL
Last edited by boar_d_laze; 07-01-2008 at 06:29 PM.
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07-01-2008, 06:49 PM
| | Registered User Culinary Experience: Retired Chef | | Join Date: May 2008 Location: Bloomington, IL./Remote Alaska
Posts: 118
| | I'm not against all farming...
Howdy BDL,
I'm not against all farming- heck, I make my home smack-dab in the middle of rural farmland in central Illinois where the world's best corn, soybeans and pork are born. If it can be done well- with outstanding taste results- I'm totally all for farming and mass-producing under proper, responsible conditions.
My freezers are full of farmed product and many I even prefer over wild product- like catfish, for example. So I am no wild-product snob.
I was a chef for many years, in both very high-end properties, as well as lower-end, budget-conscious meat-and-potatos Alaskan work camps in the oil fields... and I have often fed oil workers farmed salmon, out of often-severe budgetary limitations... I am no stranger to the eating of farmed salmon. But I am also no stranger to the taste of the far superior multiple varieties of wild product. And again, to me, there is no comparison. I won't be fooled. Don't give me a chicken nugget and tell me it's a free-range hen. Ain't got a thing in the world against chicken nuggets (or farmed salmon) in their correct place- but I don't want to see farmed salmon become acceptable in fine dining anymore than I do imitation krab, chicken nuggets, pressed turkey, spam or cool whip.
Again, I ain't no food-snob... I eat spam, cool whip & nuggets- but NOT when I'm looking for the best.
Last edited by chubyalaskagriz; 07-01-2008 at 06:51 PM.
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07-07-2008, 04:13 PM
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I think it was the Wall Street Journal that, a couple of years ago, had laboratory genetic tests done on supposedly wild-caught salmon that they bought from a number of reliable purveyors. It turned out that many of the samples were actually farmed. As I recall, the sellers were themselves surprised and not trying to cheat people, but this illustrates how little difference there can be between farmed and caught fish.
Given the precarious state of so many fish populations it is irresponsible and foolish to continue eating them. It’s not just a question of maybe not having some favorite fish to eat any more; it has even more to do with the interactions among various ocean species (including “bycatch” that is simply discarded) that can affect what the waters will be able to provide in the future. There are plenty of fish species that are farmed or caught in ways that do not put the populations at risk. Check the information at the Monterey Bay Aquarium's web site, where there are lists of fish which are the most responsible food choices. |
07-07-2008, 11:13 PM
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RE: bhirsch,
Your words appear carefully selected: "irresponsible and foolish".
Well, I guess conversation is over- bhirsch has spoken.
Next topic... |
07-08-2008, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeLM | Mike,
However much omega 6 there is in tilapia there's enough chili in the diabla to render it irrelevant.
BDL | | |
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