dark roux

[Dillbert]

well, lemme see here....

Luc H: "...........the taste of butter" - absolutely. various chef pipples wow on about "nutty flavor" etc. for me - yes, there's something to it. once made the dark roux with canola oil - jeesh.....
I'll stick with the cow juice, thanks . . . . but lard - which I 'stock' for pie crusts, might be an interesting attempt. heh, it's not like they're transfats!

"burning" somewhere I once read something like "if you see black specs, chuck it" and hence those are the guidelines I use. low heat, slow, stir (all but constantly), don't go anywhere, no phone calls... actually, I have been know to take time out to pull a cork, but that's another story.....

GrlcbrkmyGinsu: fascinating collection of letters,,,, anywhey: the separation I see is when cooling in the pan. some clarified butter fat will "pool" - not seen any separation after freezing. I mash it back together - sometimes needing to warm it slightly to form a roll and get re-incorporation.
....i'm also a "roux freezer" - neat - freezer door, top right?

Quinn - brick roux triggers something . . . done did hear about that. I don't think I'm pushing it that far.
".......before I went to school . . " never had the opportunity - definitely just a avid amateur here.
we just came back from an extended family wedding bash - Poughkeepsie - and the CIA was _closed_ for the whole month! major bummer.

[GrlcbrkmyGinsu]

Dill- Yeah, my name is from when I first got onto the line I had some crappy target ginsus. My chef grabbed one, crushed a clove of garlic with it (all the while smiling and shaking his head), and broke it. One of my favorite kitchen memories. But that's really wierd, I usually get seperation only after refrigeration (a thin layer forms on top of the rest). I'd still say it sounds just about normal. And I keep mine on the lower right hand corner next to the demi-glaze in star shaped ice cubes (demi glaze is in hearts and no I don't think it's girly).

P.S. This Thanksgiving, I'm taking a few cubes of roux and 1 or 2 of demi glaze with me and discreetly dropping them into my mother-in-law's gravy. Thanksgiving there might be tolerable then.

[KissTC]

As stated earlier, it is not the butter that burns but rather the milk residue. If you really want to use butter you can try using ghee which is clarified butter. You can make it yourself if you want. Heat some butter in a pan so that it just melts. So not very hot. A whitish "scum" will form on the top. It will look almost bubbly...Using a spoon remove the scum and what you have left is clarified butter or ghee.

To answer your question, yes. On cooling the flour will seperate from the oil / fat. It should mix back in very easily when you want to use it.

The demi glaze (rich brown sauce) colour that you are trying to achieve is not so much from the roux but is more from the stock or liquid that you use to make the sauce. The roux will contribute to the colour but nothing like what you are expecting.

If you are keen on trying to make demi glaze (also known as demi glace) I will be happy to post a recipe for it. But it takes a long time time. From memory about 8 hours to make the stock then about another 8 hours of reduction to make the sauce.

I still don't really understand why you want to freeze the roux. I understand that you want it for later use and that is fine. But it does not matter when you use it, you still need to make a stock. Whether it's a stock from the pan, as in pan gravy, or a purpose built stock. Making the stock takes a lot longer and more work than the roux...So why not make a bigger batch of sauce at a mid colour and freeze that?

That is exactly what I do! Each two months or so I make a big (about 5 litres) pot of gravy base. I just make a basic stock from vege scraps and sometimes bones. When it's done, I divide about half into small feezer containers and freeze it. The other half is just put in a large plastic bowl and covered with cling wrap and kept in the fridge. If you practice proper food handling and your fridge works properly, it should last 3 or 4 weeks...unless you eat it before then!

If you make it thicker than normal, which is what I do, then when you want to use it, it will be thick enough to take the extra liquid. For example, if you wanted a red wine gravy, you simply thaw, heat, add red wine, heat and serve.

I hope all that is of help.

[boar_d_laze]

Originally Posted by Dillbert

for the run of the mill white / blonde sauces I always make a roux on the fly.

dark roux however does take more time and attention. me making a dark roux on the fly usually results in strong burnt smells and noises from the round things on the ceiling.....

hence I like to make a dark batch and keep it in the freezer for ready use.

the usual&traditional butter:flour /1:1 works in lighter roux - but when going to the dark side I have found it necessary to increase the flour - typically 2 sticks butter (i.e. 16 tblsp) but 24 tblsp flour.

failure to increase the flour results in butter/roux separation as it cools.....

is it me or is this shift in the ratio an established artifact?

(I typically use AP, altho I always have bread & cake flour on hand, if that makes a difference.)

A roux is a suspension of flour particles, each enclosed in a globule of fat. The starch in the flour forms an adhesive for the fat. When the starch is convereted by a process called dextrinisation aka the Maillard reaction which Luc described. As a result there is are fewer starch molecules per particle to hold the fat. When the dark or brick roux is chilled, there is some separation of the fat, milk solid and water components of the butter. That and the lower adherence results in the butter separating out of the roux.

You are not the first person to notice this.

Your solution to increase the flour ratio is a recognized solution. You're not the first person to think of it but since you arrived it at independently much credit is due. Since it works, keep doing it.

Returning to an earlier thought, it is because the flour particles are separated by fat that they thicken liquid smoothly rather than clumping and forming lumps. As long as the flour is held by the fat in such a way that it will thicken without clumpingl, you're in like Flynn. I'm not sure if the improvised ratio is still properly called a roux or not. But what's in a name?

How demi glace got into this discussion isn't really clear to me, but for what it's worth: A classic demi is an espagnole daughter made from equal quantities of espagnole and veal stock, then reduced by half. An espagnole is a 25% reduction of veal stock and aromatics thickened with a medium-dark roux and structured by tomato. If you've got the stock, it takes about 3 hours to make a gallon (typical restaurant quantity for a week) of decent espagnole, and another 1-1/2 to make a quart of demi. If you're interested in espagnole there's a thread that was going earlier this spring. It was actually a pretty good thread if you like crotchety old men talking about how it used to be and how you kids shot it all to #ell.

Pardon the digression. A good dark roux is part of the price of admission when it comes to good cajun and creole cooking as well as certain aspects of "French" cooking like making a demi. Sounds like you can not only do it, but you can do it under pressure and understand the process well enough to improvise.

No more dry matini glasses, ever.

BDL

[Luc_H]

Originally Posted by boar_d_laze

When the starch is convereted by a process called dextrinisation aka the Maillard reaction which Luc described.

Yes, dextrinisation is in fact what happens to starch in a roux but it is not part of the Maillard reaction.... my turn to give details.

*****Warning**** below is a detailed food chemistry description of how a brown roux is achieved. Read at your own risk *****warning*****.

Starch is a polymer of glucose. Glucose is a 8 sided molecule (like a stop sign). Glucose molecules link together in a straight chain. The link are opposite each other. It is possible for glucose to make a side ways link hence a 3rd latching point.

Starch is a tree like structure. Most limbs are straight and occasionally branch out (a three point attachment). The straight limbs are called dextrin. Dextrin mix with water is very adhesive and is used extensively in commercial carpenter's glue for example but have no fat binding capabilities. Of the 3 possible glucose links the side attachment is the weakess.

Dextrinisation is when side chains break away when high dry heat is applied to the starch hence dextrin strands are obtained. Dextrin chains can also break in several parts when heat is applied. This reaction happens above 100C or 212C so water is not present. If water is present, starch can only be cooked at 100C. Starch soaks up water and gels when heated.

Dextrin chains have a non-reactive inert end and a reactive end called the <reducing end>. A dextrin's reducing end is the side that was previously attached to the trunk of the starch. Knowing starch is a treelike structure, only the bottom trunk end is reactive not the limb extremities.

the Maillard reaction happens when a reducing sugar reacts with a free amino acid (protein) in the presence of heat (above 100C or 212F) in the absence of humidity.

Here is the reactive steps behind the dark roux formation:

Starch and butter are combined. Heated. All the water boils off which is witnessed when the mixture foams. All the humidity in the flour and the water in the butter is boiled out. During this process the mixture stays more or less around 100C and increases slowly as more water is lossed. Once the water is all gone and the starch is technically <dry>, the temperature of the mixture increases. At above 250 or so, the starch is dextrinified which liberates reducing sugar ends. At the same time, any free amino acids not linked to proteins (mostly found in butter), will react with the sugars producing a brown compound (which happens to taste something as well). While the heat is maintained, more dextrin is produced and broken, more reducing sugars become available. At the same time, proteins break-up to liberating free amino acid. The Maillard reaction is maintained because components are continually being produced. A roux is borned and getting darker (and more flavourful). Cut the heat, stops the reaction.

The roux's capacity to gel water diminished are it gets darker.

Sorry I had to clarify the term above. When it comes to food science I am a stickler to details.

Luc H.

[Dillbert]

..........not part of the Maillard reaction.

I was wondering how long it was going to take to get around to that bit.....

as far as I have been able to determine, there is no such thing as a Maillard reaction. I can't find more than one people who agree on what it is.

as a result, I do not use "the Maillard reaction" in my cooking, I just brown the stuff.

[Dillbert]

ktc-

I'm not burning the butter or the flour. not sure why people insist my problem is burnt offerings - it isn't.

I would not consider making up 5 liters of gravy in advance. that would take 2-3 weeks to consume in our household and I'm not keen on having the same tasting gravy for weeks at a clip.
besides, the refrigerator isn't big enough to store all that kind of stuff.

<demi glace> been there done that takes forever, you're right. not entirely practical for the home chef.......

I just want to make dark color gravy/sauce for tonight's dinner, as appropriate. today it's a beef roast, tomorrow perhaps pork. if I enjoyed all those nice chemical concoctions I could fill my need with powdered mixes or perhaps canned/jarred "schufft." frankly I find having some dark roux on hand to thicken up whatever I've extracted out of the pan to be hugely convenient and right dang tasty.

...you still need to make a stock
perhaps true in a restaurant setting where a night's service takes 15 gallons of "x"
this is not true in the - or more accurately "my" - home kitchen. typically I'm thickening up a "just-deglazed-the-pan" liquid.
confession: in my pantry you will find chicken, beef and vegetable stock in cans/tetra paks.... sometimes I cheat.
truth be tolt, onced uponst a time I did the whole bone roast, reduction, stock, portion, freeze, etc., thing. reality: after trying multiple canned stock sources, I've found some that taste just as good as anything I (remember: amateur speaking here....) produced and like way whole lots easier to "handle"

on a scale of 1 to 10, I may only achieve a 6 or 7 - but that's gotta be more tastier than the folks checking out with a cartfull of frozen TV dinners.

anyway, thank you for your input and opinions - and the other folks too - apparently "separating butter" is not an unknown issue and I'll just carry on.

now, who want to talk about really good homemade broetchen? <sigh>

[phatch]

Dillbert,

Precisely!

Phil

[Dillbert]

somewhere in the hinterland of this thread,,,, I do keep a jug of "Gravy Master" on hand. close as I can figure, it's watered down dark caramelized sugar in a bottle.

a blonde roux turned brown with food coloring does not convey the same taste.

it's all about taste, no?

theory: good
reality: ahmmmm, errrrrrrrr, lacking.....

[boar_d_laze]

Originally Posted by KissTC

[...]I too have never heard actual cooks and chefs use the word 'maillard' to describe anything.

You may hang with too high a class of cook and chef. I've read or heard the odd professional use the term, including Jeremiah Tower, Ken Frank, Herve This, Michael Ruhlman, Ferrari Adria, Harold McGee and Thomas Keller among others.

Back to your roux...Why not just use parissian essence? It is just a brown food colour used for gravy, soup, meat etc. That way, you can just make a roux the way you normally would without worrying to much about the colour. Then when you make your gravy just add a few drops of parisian essence - bingo!

On the other hand, you're the first I've heard say brown roux is identical to blond or white except for the color. To my palate, the tastes are quite different, as different as the tastes of fresh and toasted bread; and all of my references agree.

FWIW, "Parisian Essence" doesn't exist here in the States. The equivalent is probably something like Kitchen Bouquet or Gravy Master. And yes, I googled Parisian + Essence.

BDL

ON EDIT: It is indeed all about the taste.

[kuan]

I've deleted a few posts and I'm locking this thread.

Do not PM me.