[Dillbert]

for the run of the mill white / blonde sauces I always make a roux on the fly.

dark roux however does take more time and attention. me making a dark roux on the fly usually results in strong burnt smells and noises from the round things on the ceiling.....

hence I like to make a dark batch and keep it in the freezer for ready use.

the usual&traditional butter:flour /1:1 works in lighter roux - but when going to the dark side I have found it necessary to increase the flour - typically 2 sticks butter (i.e. 16 tblsp) but 24 tblsp flour.

failure to increase the flour results in butter/roux separation as it cools.....

is it me or is this shift in the ratio an established artifact?

(I typically use AP, altho I always have bread & cake flour on hand, if that makes a difference.)

[Luc_H]

Hi Dillbert,

My take is if your trick works for you (double flour) why question it.

If a traditional roux is what you want but it separates, think of portion packing it to freeze it like making ice cubes. Use as many frozen cubes as you need when making recipes.

As for flour choice, roux is a controlled browning (Maillard) reaction. The reaction depends on available proteins and carbohydrates. Flour is carbohydrate heavy so increasing the protein will help in colour and flavour development. In this light, bread flour (high in protein) will work better then AP (intermediate) and better still than (low protein) cake flour.

That's my take,
Luc H.

[Scarecrobot]

For dark roux forget about butter and use oil.
If it smells burnt you should throw it out and start again.
Some tricks to unattended dark roux are browning the flour in the oven, or taking your vegetables and cooking them separately til they're almost black.
The darker the roux the less the thickening power

[Luc_H]

Originally Posted by Scarecrobot

For dark roux forget about butter and use oil....

Some tricks to unattended dark roux are browning the flour in the oven...

The darker the roux the less the thickening power

Scarerobot,
use oil instead of butter: Excellent point! butter proteins brown/burn more easily then the flour proteins.

My mother used to brown flour in the oven... I hated the smell when I was a child but she made a mean brown sauce for pork roast with that stuff!

the decreasing thickening power of dark roux is on the money (I think we covered that in another post). Dark roux is more for flavour and colour then thickening. The browning reaction breakdown starch hence the thickening capacity of flour.

Great insight Scarerobot!

Luc H.

[Dillbert]

good input - like the bread flour idea - will definitely try that.

for clarification: I do not burn roux and then try to use it.

when it's time to make up a batch of dark roux I dedicate the time and attention to the task to make it happen comma properly.
what I was trying to express is trying to bring a dark roux to fruition while dancing with multiple other dishes, things, out of ice, doorbell ringing, guest with a dry martini glass,,,,, usually results in burnt stuff, hence my proclivity to making it in advance.

since this is "all purpose" to be used in <?>, it is just butter and flour - no seasonings, no veggies, just a dark roux for use in making a dark sauce/gravy base.

(and when I'm out of dark roux then I just make a lighter roux and hit it with some GravyMaster. sigh. it is mostly a color thing, but toasted flour does convey its own flavor.....)

re freezing in small batchi - I make a batch in a straight sided saute pan, let it cool / solidify, scrape it out, form into a roll, freeze. then I can lop off 'as much as needed'

the neat part - seeing as dark roux does not have the thickening power of light roux - if I booboo the amount needed I can go whack off another tablespoon or two and 'get outta' the fix in a flash.'

the 'problem' I've noticed is using flour:butter 1:1, as it cools, (some) butter separates.

now, I agree entirely: "if it works, go fer it!" - this is just one of life's little mysteries I thought perhaps a pro might "recognize" as "yeah, it works that way, you're not crazy."

of course, if I'm crazy, well, I can do that, too! <g>

Dan -

interesting roux capsulation -
stunning part: I'm making a dark roux, problem with fat separation.
check the proportions cited - 1:1 volumetrically throughout
_except_ for the dark cajuin roux - 2:1 oil flour.... wonder if that separates....?

[Dillbert]

.............rather than a darkened or burnt blonde/brown roux (butter and flour).

I don't burn the roux.
I don't burn the roux.
I don't burn the roux.

the folks who invented a dark roux did not have high smoke point oils available. use of high smoke point oils appears to be a convenient shortcut to "how to make a dark roux without really caring"

[Luc_H]

Dillbert,

Obviously you know your roux and you're not crazy .... I think (wink, nudge).
Luc H.

[shroomgirl]

what got my attention was that you are making roux while entertaining.

It can be made into gumbo or whatever sauce earlier in the day and used at dinner.

Made seafood gumbo last Monday. 1-1 ration oil to flour, add spices and veg to dark roux, then stock.....add seafood just minutes prior to service.... and only as much for those portions. Keeps the seafood from overcooking.

Etouffee can be made earlier and slowly reheated

So what are you making with the dark roux?

[Dillbert]

......... Obviously you know your roux and you're not crazy .... I think (wink, nudge).

......... what got my attention was that you are making roux while entertaining.

Luc_H -

okay the roux, not so sure about the crazy bit.

[phatch]

I agree on more flour than fat. Makes sense in producing some to keep for later as you get more roux for about the same work.

I've taken to toasting a few cups of flour in the oven. Stir it around a few times. I don't think it tastes the same as fat cooked roux but it's a useful shortcut for me as a home cook. Speeds up weekday gravies and stews. i usually darken it some more in fat but the cooking time is significantly shorter.

And I use higher smoking point fat than butter for dark roux. However, it's not usually that much higher. Bacon drippings, schmalz and other good fat from cooking. I'd go for ghee over butter just to skip on the milk solids if I happen to have some ghee around.

Phil

[KissTC]

As already stated, your problem is that you are using butter to try and make a dark or brown roux.

The ratio for dark roux is 5 parts flour to 4 parts dripping (or similar type fat or oil)...even vegetable deep frying compound can be used.

The dark colour you are trying to get does not come from the roux being dark. It comes from the additives...That is what you use to make the sauce. You can add colour directly to the roux if you really want the roux to be darker. For example, if you are after a demi glaze type result, you can add a spoon or two of triple concentrate tomato paste directly to the roux.

What is it exactly you are trying to achieve? Maybe if we understood exactly what it is you are looking for, we might be able to offer a solution.

[Dillbert]

...What is it exactly you are trying to achieve?

I want to have a dark thickener stashed in the freezer for ready use.

reason: every dish does not generate the basis for a dark colored sauce.
example: schnitzel and spaetzle - maybe a few bits left in the schnitzel pan
I reconstitute morels, saute fresh mushroom + diced onion/shallot/scallion + use the liquor and my "brown stuff" to make a sauce.

and to clarify points suggested in earlier messages:
this is not an exercise in making gumbo.
am I not so dumb I do not know know how to turn down the flame under the pan.
nor am I so inattentive that I go break dancing with my guests and leave the pan on the stove to burn.

....The ratio for dark roux is 5 parts flour to 4 parts dripping

the original question is: is it "normal" at the typical 1:1 aka 5:5 ratio for the fat/butter to separate on cooling?
I am now using 12 parts flour to 8 parts butter which is equal to 5 parts flour and 3.3333333 parts butter
the suggested 5:4 ratio contains more fat than what I am currently using

why is butter a problem?
the smoke point of butter lists at 350'F
vegetable shortening 360'F
lard 370'F
flour toasts a long time before any of those

[Luc_H]

Hi Dillbert,
I followed you from the get go.

As for why butter can (not < is >) a problem has nothing to do with the fat smoke point.
It is the residual milk proteins in butter that have a tendency to burn more readily than the flour will brown. But, if you keep things low and slow like I now you are doing, it is not an issue (and the fatty acid in butter taste better than any other oils)

Luc H.

[GrlcbrkmyGinsu]

Originally Posted by Dillbert

the original question is: is it "normal" at the typical 1:1 aka 5:5 ratio for the fat/butter to separate on cooling?
I am now using 12 parts flour to 8 parts butter which is equal to 5 parts flour and 3.3333333 parts butter
the suggested 5:4 ratio contains more fat than what I am currently using

why is butter a problem?
the smoke point of butter lists at 350'F
vegetable shortening 360'F
lard 370'F
flour toasts a long time before any of those

It seems like it is normal for butter. I've had the same "problem" when using butter for a dark roux as i'm also a "roux freezer". After a little while, I stopped using butter and I didn't really see any more seperation. Maybe (just speculating) it has something to do with butter being part milk solids, so that when you freeze it, it's more likely to seperate than, say, an oil. Also, as regards to butter being a problem, it's not. It's more likely to burn than oil but if you aren't having any trouble then you aren't having any problem.

[Quinn01]

before i went to school i only knew a few of the rouxs anyway they tought us about brick roux which you cook the poo out of and it acutaly starts to turn red. kinda cool.

ive never heard of increasing ratio just cooking time. but im a noob so idk.