women in the kitchen

[diane]

Our benches were made 2" higher when re refitted the kitchen. We vary in height from 5.1 to 6.1 and it seems comfortable for all of us.

[AprilB]

the odd thing was that she was totally biased against the females in the kitchen (primarily the pastry chef <me>, and bakers). We got mother- henned and micro managed to death (Even in absentia on the days she wasn't around with notes and whatnot. Which typically were tasks that we already knew, had been doing for ages or were going to do anyway) like we didn't have a clue what we were doing. Yet the 99.9% male dinner chefs and line cooks had free rein to indulge in whatever bizarre culinary whimsy they wanted to come up with.

I've been cooking and creating my whole life but seeing combinations like snails with quail and wild boar plus calamari cream just wanted to make me hurl.

Bizarre does not = five star.

Yet she would never question these guys on what they were preparing.

It was not a great situation.

On the other hand, I've also worked with a predominant number of flat out abrasive females working as assistant mgrs, Pantry leads and whatnot. I think it's just tougher being a female in the food industry, but I don't know why it has to translate into being a Bioche other than not feeling like we're being taken seriously.

I find this kind of ironic since women have been doing most of the gathering and cooking since before caveman days. That's why women have better color, smell and taste senses, and men have better hearing and can see in the dark. It stems from men hunting and needing to have good vision to see prey in twilight while hunting and women would have to ascertain the difference between ripe and rotten food. It's also why men have more instances of color blindness. They didn't need to discern color.

(no, I'm not making this up)

I wonder at what point the split came with men running off to take food to all kinds of strange and unusual extremes? (Julia Childs aside)

50 years ago when a woman was an excellent cook she was called a wife and mom. Whereas a man would be called a Chef?

Hmmmm...



April

[diane]

April, I think it far more to do with men toddling back to camp with a deer over his shoulder, a flesh wound, and packing a hissy fit about the "day he had". The women had to cook, because they had nothing else to do. Curing hides, drying food for winter, gathering grain and so on. Sewing clothing, spinning, weaving, cobbling. Gathering firewood, keeping the fires alive, keeping the kids alive, breastfeeding, pregnant, in labour, or cleaning up the cave. Making ungents and other medicines, and the foraging for them, fighting off the nosey bear, and deciding how long they could keep this old person, or that, alive. They were, after all said and done, nearly 30 years old. But of course, this was just 'stuff'.

OK men, I am being unfair, if I saw a Mammoth I would say good morning and run like h*ll.

[ExpatC]

I just wanted to maybe pose a question that is bound to be controversial.

I have been a chef (male) in a high-powered, very competitive market, and with, if I do say so myself, not insubstantial successes. My best staff have ALWAYS without exception been the women. That has just been my experience and I KNOW is not always the case guys.

But, in the last couple of years I have invested time, energy, cash and my kitchens in the hands of 2 Women. Both were great, motivated, interested, interesting and good teachers (very important in my opinion). But, sorry to bring this up, they both got pregnant and left to never return. And, let's be honest, that is a problem that men do not have, ever.

Now I am afraid to do it again. I am really sorry to say this. I know it is not fair and I know it is part of life. I know that men leave jobs also. But, twice in three years this has happened and it sets my work back about 18months, or at least it feels that way, everytime.

Sorry to say this here. I have the utmost respect for women in the kitchen. I learned from women (names that I am sure most of you know, actually.). But, this has been a real problem and I would be dishonest if I did not chime in with this comment.

[travisbickle]

My reply to this first and foremost is...I don't care if you have a penis or a vagina, the work is the same for everyone and as cooks and chefs, you help out your fellow workers. A gender issue? It only exsists in a mind that's focus is misdirected. I have worked for female chefs and they gained my respect by what they did and how they did it...not by drinking matches and other silliness. NO ONE can out do me in that category! Anyway, I thought the idea of this post was pretty inane so I couldn't resist tossing in my two cents. There's only one rule I know of and it applies to all...If you can't take the heat, get the "F" out...and take your penis and/or vagina with you.

[AprilB]

Originally Posted by ExpatC

My best staff have ALWAYS without exception been the women.

I believe women are actually genetically predisposed to multi-task. After all, whether or not we have them, we're supposed to grow an extra set of eyes and hands when we have kids. Everything Diane mentioned...nurturers, gathers, cleaners... and I may be weird but I'd just as soon down a Mammoth as not if need be. (Usta be once a month...LOL)

You know, the solution may be to start hiring women like myself. I've still got tons of good decades, experience, AND I guarantee I won't be going anywhere for maternity leave.

April

[travisbickle]

Originally Posted by AprilB

I believe women are actually genetically predisposed to multi-task. After all, whether or not we have them, we're supposed to grow an extra set of eyes and hands when we have kids. Everything Diane mentioned...nurturers, gathers, cleaners... and I may be weird but I'd just as soon down a Mammoth as not if need be. (Usta be once a month...LOL)

You know, the solution may be to start hiring women like myself. I've still got tons of good decades, experience, AND I guarantee I won't be going anywhere for maternity leave.

April

So a man is less cabable of multi-tasking because he doesn't have a uterus? "Oh, he must be gay...". This post is so stupid, but I feel compelled to argue the point. One reason I can't stand a woman in the kitchen is that the minute she picks up a pan or knife, she thinks she has a point to prove. Ladies, leave your shoulder chip at the door! It's either you can or you can't and you better talk fast and find a place quick, just like every ilegal and legal worker, 'cause when it comes down to it, the INFS doesn't care what your gender is and the kitchen staff doesn't stop to ak as a group about "equipment". Men are desinged for harder labor and can put up with demanding physical conditions better than women. Women...if you are blessed with a little one, you will need recovery time. "Recovery time" does not exsist in a professional kitchen. Bottom line...It's a good thing men are running kitchens for the most part or else would we have to shut down or make crazy changes in our plans just because you wanted have a family? Maybe this isn't a good profession for women to be in if they find themselves periodically incapacitated. Are we "equals", or not?

[foodpump]

Hold it, lets slow down here. We're all humans, same amount of fingers and toes, just different sexual oragans, that's all.

Now ExpatC made a very valid point, and there's a very valid solution.

Cooks (male or female) are transient workers. Period. Very few, except those in managament or in large institutions will stay on for more than a year. Pregneancy? I've seen woman work right up to the day of birth. When a woman gives birth and stays at home for a while, no one can say that you as the Chef didn't have any advance warning and didn't start to look for a replacement.

Woman as Chefs? By the time anyone climbs the professional ladder their child rearing days are behind them

[Andrew563]

I am still amazed that this is an issue. Every place I have worked, I have seen more crying and moaning from the guys than the girls.

[ExpatC]

Well, Andrew, I hope that what I said wasn't read as moaning and crying. Was not in any way intended like that. Just a real issue in a real world.

Actually, I miss my sous chefs that where AMAZING at multi-tasking. (That talent may well be genetic) And it is absolutely also my experience also, most crying and moaning does not , generally, come from the women.

And, also, a great Sous Chef is like a needle in a haystack. Sometimes all the time in the world still doesn't drop one on the doorstep or present someone that is trainable. That is maybe a good thread to start: What makes a good Sous?

[travisbickle]

Originally Posted by Andrew563

I am still amazed that this is an issue. Every place I have worked, I have seen more crying and moaning from the guys than the girls.

The "crying and moaning" I have seen by the guys has been about having to deal with working around cooks that can't keep up or servers that left their alledged brain at home but remembered to bring their crack pipe. Point blank, I have yet to work with a female in the kitchen that can tough it out and be a bad a*s and own a station. I just don't feel this is your average woman's best professional choice. I would say maybe one in one hundred of females that pursue this profession end up staying in some respect. That's just a guess based on my experiences working with females in a kitchen.

[AprilB]

Hey, Trav...a little quick on the defensive trigger aren't we? (don't let that "knee-jerk reaction" hit you in the nose)

INFS? Gay? Sexist? Whazzup with that? (you forgot to include a racist thing, but maybe that could be included in the INFS comment)

I never said anything about 'gay' or whatever. Heck, it wasn't even addressed at you.

It's just a fact of life that women throughout history have had to juggle stuff in their lives (multi-tasking) that men haven't. Because traditionally women have run the household and taken care of numerous children over the centuries.

I don't know where you got the idea that it negates anything that men have contributed. (naked male insecurities perhaps...? Probably why WWF was invented)

Nowadays many women even have to hold down a job to boot, WHILE taking care of growing kids, WHILE maintaining the household. Sick or injured, for centuries women with a family have always had to be on-call 24/7...and it's still a fact that statistically women do most of the homebody stuff.

Be that as it may, anybody who has a passion for what we do and does it well is worthy of being treated decently. I don't sense from your post that you do that.

For example in my various positions, there was this one young prep (guy)who would burn over $200 of brie en croute at least once a week. Another disher (guy) would routinely not show on weekends (our busiest days). Our exec chef (guy) blew all of his exposed hair off of his body because the line guys liked to light the burners with Pam cans. (he's lucky he didn't explode the whole can), the weekend/buffet chef (guy) would come to work stoned more often than not and would routinely throw out 3/4 of fresh mussels or clams because he didn't know (after having worked there for years) how to check whether they were alive or not or how to store them, the Salad Lead (guy) took the entire ends of all of his fingers on one hand off using the mandolin, the list goes on and on...

Yeah, there are screw ups of all types and persuasions.

To pigeon hole a person because of sex is not only illegal, but just plain "stupid". I'd be very careful because your "opinion" could get you fired and your kitchen sued.

My point was I am now in Meno-stop. I am a great cook/chef culinary artist. My point was that I am now in a position where I won't be taking maternity leave.

It ... was ... a ... joke?

>Men are desinged for harder labor and can put up with demanding physical conditions better than women.

That premise works for a construction worker. Just how "physically demanding" do you think it really is working in a kitchen that would exclude a qualified female? Lifting 50 pound? Walking, standing for up to 9+ hours a day? Lifting a knife? Boosting your Ego?

I'm 53. I have worked 10 to 12 hour days. On my feet. Lifting, stocking, moving 20 to 50 pound bags/boxes of flour, sugar, frozen goods, hot trays, cold trays...stacks of trays...Oh, excuse me. Guess I shoulda consulted someone with your attitude before I went out and found out I don't have the strength to work in a commercial kitchen

I won't even go into the 'hard physical labor' thing involving my 3 kids. <It's another joke?>.

So who's got the chip here?

Are we "equals"? I sure as heck hope not. I'd pit my multi-tasking skills and stamina against you and your attitude any day.

Dude, take a midol and calm down...

A*

[CrazyTATT]

Originally Posted by travisbickle

So a man is less cabable of multi-tasking because he doesn't have a uterus? "Oh, he must be gay...". This post is so stupid, but I feel compelled to argue the point. One reason I can't stand a woman in the kitchen is that the minute she picks up a pan or knife, she thinks she has a point to prove. Ladies, leave your shoulder chip at the door! It's either you can or you can't and you better talk fast and find a place quick, just like every ilegal and legal worker, 'cause when it comes down to it, the INFS doesn't care what your gender is and the kitchen staff doesn't stop to ak as a group about "equipment". Men are desinged for harder labor and can put up with demanding physical conditions better than women. Women...if you are blessed with a little one, you will need recovery time. "Recovery time" does not exsist in a professional kitchen. Bottom line...It's a good thing men are running kitchens for the most part or else would we have to shut down or make crazy changes in our plans just because you wanted have a family? Maybe this isn't a good profession for women to be in if they find themselves periodically incapacitated. Are we "equals", or not?

Wow, and people respect this opinion in your world? I know MANY women who can more then hold there own.

Sorry, but this post is the reason this thread was started...to inform about the ignorance of people who in this day and age, can still belittle people based on a uninformed mind set. Just because you have not had the pleasure of working with a woman who can "own" a situation, does not mean she is not out there. I think you are basing your opinion on something you seem to have very little experience with.

This is in no way an attack on you, or your beliefs, I just feel the oppinon expressed, is very illinformed.

Nothing personal....

[travisbickle]

AprilB...First things first...I can see where you may have mistook my observations for "attitude". You can't see me facial expression, hear my tone of voice or possibly know how I treat anyone. So I forgive you for your jumping the gun, no harm done. I based my comments on observations I've had working with females in a professional kitchen. May you are one of the "one in a hundred" I spoke of. I didn't insinuate that you were one of the ones that couldn't hang in there or would push off duties like fryer cleaning, grill/broiler cleaning, and line pulls on the male cooks because "...I'm not "feeling good" so maybe you can do this for me so I can go home early." What??? Yup, it's happened many times. That's ust experience, AprilB, not gender prejudice. Women fought long and hard for equality in many respects with men and I respect that. What I don't dig is when female cooks play the "I'm the female so be gentle", card. That's the point you missed while you were going off on your tangent about all the males in kitchens you have worked that were screwballs. So ease back on the feminest speak. In my eyes, when a someone calls themself a cook and walks into a kitchen to work, I don't care what color, race, religious affiliation, gender, sexual preference, or financial status they have...they beter be able to do the job well and not play games. Plenty of time after shift to mess around.

[AprilB]

To be honest I don't give a rats little rotund hiney if you "forgive" me or not. It would take a very up-himself and sexist individual to throw out a phrase like that. Odd. I'd actually like to know what culture you grew up in. I think you need to consult the English dictionary about the difference between "obversation" and "attitude".

I sense that you have superiority issues about others in your kitchen and if I were your EC I would certainly call you on them.

That's the point you missed while you were going off on your tangent about all the males in kitchens you have worked that were screwballs. So ease back on the feminest speak.

May you are one of the "one in a hundred" I spoke of. I didn't insinuate that you were one of the ones that couldn't hang in there or would push off duties like fryer cleaning, grill/broiler cleaning, and line pulls on the male cooks because "...

No, but you chose MY post to spout. <you chose poorly>

As far as easing up on "feminist" speak? Lemme see...hmmmm....no, I don't think so...no. (besides the fact that I haven't heard that term for decades<misspelled or not>) I believe your quote was "I hate working with women because". You happened to choose the wrong post to try to make a point...IE: mine.

I'm not particularly feminist. I'm a female and really good at what I do as far as culinary art. I react really badly when my talent is attacked, especially by someone who doesn't even have a clue and basing their whole critique on my gender.

My "point" was, as I said in my original post that you decided to fixate on: It was a lighthearted comment about my being too old for maternity leave.

Get a sense of humor, dude.

My point about "guys" in the kitchen was just to illustrate (and I somehow knew you'd hook on it), the many problems that occur in a kitchen that aren't necessarily 'female' oriented. It wasn't male bashing, it was just an illustration of the truth. (like I said: a tad sensitive are we?)

Another one of your quotes was something to the effect that women can't find their way around a kitchen. If you would read further up the thread, I've had a lot of frustrating experiences with females in the industry. If anything most women who are climbing the culinary ladder are working pretty damned hard, but from your complaints I'm beginning to think you work at Burger King or something.

To preface your post with responding to my "stupid" post...was just, well...stupid. There is no excusing your in your face attitude. Not a way to open a sincere dialogue.

I am now calling you on it and no amount of dancing can get you out of appearing like a little pedantic twerp.

I'm now guessing you're very green, young, and from one of those chauvanistic countries. My challenge still stands. Chef Talk Stadium...YEAH!

April

(btw...I'm guessing all of the "I'm not feeling good so can I go?" excuses were because nobody wanted to be around you longer than absolutely necessary)