[travisbickle]

Originally Posted by AprilB

the odd thing was that she was totally biased against the females in the kitchen (primarily the pastry chef <me>, and bakers). We got mother- henned and micro managed to death (Even in absentia on the days she wasn't around with notes and whatnot. Which typically were tasks that we already knew, had been doing for ages or were going to do anyway) like we didn't have a clue what we were doing. Yet the 99.9% male dinner chefs and line cooks had free rein to indulge in whatever bizarre culinary whimsy they wanted to come up with.

I've been cooking and creating my whole life but seeing combinations like snails with quail and wild boar plus calamari cream just wanted to make me hurl.

Bizarre does not = five star.

Yet she would never question these guys on what they were preparing.

It was not a great situation.

On the other hand, I've also worked with a predominant number of flat out abrasive females working as assistant mgrs, Pantry leads and whatnot. I think it's just tougher being a female in the food industry, but I don't know why it has to translate into being a Bioche other than not feeling like we're being taken seriously.

I find this kind of ironic since women have been doing most of the gathering and cooking since before caveman days. That's why women have better color, smell and taste senses, and men have better hearing and can see in the dark. It stems from men hunting and needing to have good vision to see prey in twilight while hunting and women would have to ascertain the difference between ripe and rotten food. It's also why men have more instances of color blindness. They didn't need to discern color.

(no, I'm not making this up)

I wonder at what point the split came with men running off to take food to all kinds of strange and unusual extremes? (Julia Childs aside)

50 years ago when a woman was an excellent cook she was called a wife and mom. Whereas a man would be called a Chef?

Hmmmm...



April

April, you seem to be suffering from from male envy. Caveman days??? Did you proof read your post that included speculations on why there is a higher frquency of color-blindness in men over women before reading it? Are you implying that it's a women's jobe to prepare food and man's job to provide the food to be prepared base on a THEORY? That's one h*ll of a stretch. "I don't care where you go, men are the best cooks in the world."-Movie: Donnie Brasco, Al Pacino's character. I'm to belive it's an accurate stement that just happened to find itself in a film feature. The women I know would much rather have the men in thier lives prepare their meas for them than do it themselves. What does that say? C'mon, April, YOU are the one that opened up the Pandora's box here with this sh*t. Feel free to rant as much as your little, uncalloused fingertips can stand, but it won't change the fact that men are better cooks overall. That's the bottom line.

[AprilB]

Like I said, I'm not making the science up.

A*

[AprilB]

You have just made my night...

I'm quoting science and you quote a movie line?

Sweet Cheeses...BAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Wow....

Sorry...

Pfffttttttt..................!!!!!

[godfather_chef]

the only problem i have ever had with any women in the kitchen, is that sometimes they can be a bit of a 'distraction' to the rest of the kitchen. there is a girl who i work with now who flirts with the dishwashers [the people, not the machines] so that they will do some ofr her prep for her. i know that doesn't fit the description of all female workers, it's just my observation.

[foodpump]

O.K. you two, we'll settle this thing German Style: Make sure the EC is on coffee break and we'll lock you two up in the walk-in with your choice of knives. May the best person win....

[shroomgirl]

Wow.
4 years ago I hosted an openning event for the market...."Which Came First Chicks or Eggs?" 10 women chefs cooking local products, woman's jazz band, women artists selling their local food based wares. The response from some of my male buddies was interesting....many said, " there aren't any, or very few" ......there are more than you think out there. In StL....

KT Ayers not only is a woman but in her twenties. She has run the kitchen for one of the top rated local foods restaurants in STL....Riddles Penultimate.
She started in the kitchen as a little kid....so KT puts out 350-500 meals on a Friday-Sat night that include separate sides ie....there are no set combos....you choose 2 from ave 8+ vegetables to accompany your entree. Do the math. KT rocks. The kitchen is sourced with a huge percentage of local food, her Mom makes desserts and preps some in the day....her dad runs the office and gathers produce from markets/farms.

Maggy Kelly....was sous chef for Cardwells on the Plaza and owned Hot Locust....she now has tv and radio shows. Maggy rocks. She is amazing to watch....she cooks at her husbands new restaurant Terrene. Again local sustainable food.

Lisa Slay is EC of 4 very busy restaurants and has been for years....Blue Water Grill, Ellie, Big Sky and Remy's Wine Bar. Lisa is amazing and brings her families Lebanese cooking background to the forefront.

Julie Coulton runs her own catering kitchen, as does Linda Pilcher, Joan Long, Sherrill Gonterman, Renee Deall....offsite catering is the apex of kitchens.
Pull off meals in the middle of a field with no electricity, running water, etc....
it's a whole lot different than walking into a building with everything you need.

These aren't the pastry chefs/bakers or various others that run food business....I did not mention all the others with small venues.....

Nationally...Judy Rodgers from Zuni, Ann Cooper from Ross School, Nora Poullian from Nora's in DC....Nora's is the first organic certified restaurant in the USA....
There are alot of women farmers too....and if you think kitchen work is hard go run a small intensive farm.

[Pete]

Ok, everyone, stop and take a breath. It really is very simple. If you can hang in the kitchen great, join my team. If you can't then get out, whether you are male for female. All this other crap is moot! Travis you state that men are better chefs. What is your proof? Sure, at this point in time, there are more male chefs who have achieved the status of "great", but that is probably because this is still a male dominated business where males outnumber females by a considerable margin. Show me some real proof to back your statements. And April, you are almost as bad. In your posts to defend yourself and womankind you have pretty much implied that women are the better chefs. Go re-read your posts if you don't think so. Both men and women are capable of greatness and both are capable of being complete screw-ups. There has been the assertation that some women use the "fragile female" card to get other cooks to do their work for them. Yes, I have seen it, but I have also seen many men use some other excuse to achieve the same results. Women who have used their "femaleness" to get what they want? Yes, but also seen men use any underhanded scheme at their disposal also. Do men and women have some inherent differences, some inherent strengths and weaknesses, yes they do. Anyone who claims otherwise is deluding themselves. (I'm not going to list them here, as someone will jump on them and call me a sexist). A good chef knows how to exploit those strengths and weakness in him/herself and in others, how to create a team where everyone's strengths balances out everyone's weaknesses.

[foodpump]

So, can they shake hands? Or should they go into the walk-in together and duke it out?....

[Nick.Shu]

My Ex-wife is a female,,,,,....

[AprilB]

Weyell...how about we do the FN ad thing and fence with frozen fish?

OH OH..I know...whipped cream dispensers at 20 paces...

Actually, Pete, no, I never said or even tried to imply anything of the sort. (Unless it's the cookoff challenge...) Methinks they protest too much.

What I did say and do know is that traditionally women have been the gatherers, food preparers, nurturers and such for ages. This involves doing a s*load of stuff all at once. Sure that's changed somewhat in the last 30 or 40 years, but...It's history and just is. Science has also researched the reasoning behind color blindness being a sex link in males. (ages ago...hunting at twilight...you don't need a strong sense of color to hunt dear in shades of gray. <you don't see color in the dark>) Or that women have an edge regarding smell and color. (making sure food isn't rotten...also ages ago) Recent studies have found that women's brains work differently from men's and we use more of both sides, as compared to a lot of one, hence the ability to multi-task better. (of course a person would have to get stuck in some serious science journals to know this) I thought it was interesting and being the caring sharing person that I am...

Be that as it may, the bottom line is whether or not the person is a better chef is entirely up to the individual, not their gender.

Heck, everyone is intitled to their own opinion but as I said I would use caution having my 'opinion' running rampant around my workplace. It's just common sense because it can have serious consequences nowadays.

On the other hand, there's a difference between having an opinion about women in the kitchen, or frustration because of bad experiences with individuals, and having a corncob stuck Godknows about women in the kitchen at all. (Or, maybe just women in general...or...?) <anger this one has..mmmmmmm .... (thank you Yoda)>

Pete, I'm sure if you go back and re-read my posts in relation to what was being said without the defense filters set on high, you will probably get the point of what I was trying to say. I had mentioned some of my experiences as illustration, lighthearted comments and tidbits of info. Then re-read the reaction.

And...yeah, when I make a joke or something and have my post tagged to basically springboard into a rip session...I tend to get a tad testy.

Like I said: Grow a SOH!

April

[diane]

AprilB I love you. That was a good sturdy response. Perhaps it comes down to the 'woman driver' thing. Crass ignorance combined with Narcistic Personality Disorder, in some. We leave the crash to the men. Our job is to be blamed, both for our own injuries and the childrens.

But I do not wish to be unkind, there are some mighty good men out there. I think the crux (or should that be crutch) of the matter is forgetting who people are except for their names. I run a small place, the thought of running a kitchen for hundreds, and sometimes thousands would be unthinkable. If in an emergency it would be different, but the fare would be thick soups, and bread and butter. But we are just two. These huge kitchens you speak of, and the variety served is just about beyond my ken. And the numbers employed.

All I can say about it is I see no difference between men or women, when one gets into such heights it becomes an interlectual exercise. That is the real challenge, not being able to stagger from the loading bay with huge weight on your back. Not that some women can't, they can. But is this the best use of their talent and power? They are quicker to instruction or need, neater in habit, and more bidable. Generally ignore inconsiderate action an inappropriate language. Until there is time to make their opinion known.

The notion of employing women of middle age is a good one. I have depended on such Ladies since 1984, and have NEVER been let down.

[foodpump]

Nick.Shu: So your ex was a female, eh?

Well! I'll have you know that I am a direct descendent of dead, white, European males!......


Stole that line out of a dust jacket from a little gem called "Politically correct bedtime stories"...

[diane]

Clear your mailbox foodpump, there isn't room for this shrimp in there. I dunno, you men......

[foodpump]

Mmmnnmm, deleted all fifteen messages, now it says I've still got 5 messages, but I can't access them. Oh well, best get my 13 yr old daughter to help me out...

[travisbickle]

When a man is bold and upfront, we say he's got "balls". What do they say when women are the same way? AprilB? Question for you...