Demi glace/Veal stock revisited

[84RHONDA]

I hope some of you can help me with this. I did a search function for demi-glace and veal stock. I've always wanted to attempt this, so today I did. Actually, I'm in the process right now. Okay, so i used some of your advice (Chef David Simpson) but also followed the CIA cookbook for brown veal stock. Question #1. (Concerning browning my bones). Is there an advantage to putting tomato paste on the bones vs. roasting your mirepoix and adding the tomato paste? or will both methods yield the same result?

I followed the CIA method which was to roast bones, cover with water, simmer for 5 hours, then in a separate pot, sautee mirepoix and then add the tomato paste and then add that back to the stock pot along with the sachet d'epice. And simmer for an additional hour. I read that the mirepoix mixture should not be added to early on in the stock prep because you don't want the carrots to leach too much color? Don't know if there's any truth to that. But I noticed in Chef simpson's stock recipe he added the mirepoix right away. (I think)

Question #2, what should my brown veal stock look like? Right now ( i just added the mirepoix to the stock) it looks kind of orangy/reddish with a 3mm layer of oil on top. Is that normal?

Last but not least, the dumbest question of all.. what kind of "flavor" am i looking for in the veal stock. Do you guys normally season it as you go along, or do you keep your stock relatively bland and build your sauces from there on.

Sorry for the "amateurish" questions, but i really wanna excel in my sauce/stocks making techniques.

Thanks in advance.

Binh T

[Anneke]

Congratulations on making your own demi!! I've always considered demi-making to be some sort of graduation from being a good cook to being a great one!

Not that I necessarily have all the answers for you...

First, regarding the tomato paste. Ultimately it doesn't really matter how you cook it as long as you absolutely don't burn it. As you reduce your stock, the burnt bits will get stronger and stronger and make your demi bitter.

As for seasoning, do not season other than your herbs and peppercorns of course. You can add your flavourings including salt when it's time to use your demi in sauces etc. Salt will not improve the quality of your demi if you add it early, but you do risk oversalting as it reduces.

I can see a logic to not adding your vegetables too soon, but it has nothing to do with carrots leaching out their colour. WHen all is said and done, you should end up with a rich brown viscous liquid, and the colour of the carrots will be of no consequence. However, bones have goodness to give for 8 or 10 hours or even more. Vegetables do not. If they turn into a mush, it might give more body to your stock than you would like, and I'm not quite sure about it, but maybe even affect the flavour. Demi should be all about the bones and the taste of the veal and its gelatin. THe veg should only be a backdrop so to speak to help it along, no more than that.

As for the 3mm of fat on top, sounds like you're probably not skimming enough. When I make mine, I skim regularly enough that after I refrigerate it, there's virtually no fat floating up and congealing on the surface.

My final tip, use a really good bottle of wine (I like a cab). Demi is all about intensifying flavours through concentration; if you start with sub-optimal ingredients, you end up with sub-optimal-times-ten.

Good luck and let us know how it turned out!!

[mirepoix man]

you might want to consider using mushroom trimmings/stems as well...to give it a subtle undertone. And of course, always peel your carrots for a mirepoix...would you eat carrot skins?

[84RHONDA]

Thanks for the advice anneke and mirepoixman and the encouragement. Well, I'm having difficulty understanding the term "skimming". I usually only remove the really thick "foamy" stuff. Should I go deeper into the broth and skim more of the oily stuff away too? So i strained the stock last night and cooled it down and put it in the fridge, the fat has now congealed, so I guess now would be a good time to remove it then right?

Anneke should my "bone stock" be simmered for 7ish hours before adding the mirepoix and sachet d'epices? I've heard anywhere between 5 hours to a whopping 13 hours

Another question is how do you guys go about storing stocks and demiglace. I bought these disposable plastic icecube bags and I was thinking of filling those up and then freezing the stock( I never use a huge amounts of stock at any given time). Any suggestions or tips would be greatly appreciated.

[Anneke]

Well, He-Whose-Name-Is-Not-Rhonda,

Regarding the timing of your veg/sachet, I can't answer that question. I've always done it at the beginning and it's never been a problem. Maybe on a larger scale it might, I don't know.

About skimming, I do remove the fat as it floats up during the cooking process. I don't find it has a good flavour (this isn't duck or pork!). What you do is rest your laddle on the surface and make circles with it do get a gentle whirling motion to your stock. Then you you dip the edge of your laddle in about 1/8" to collect the fat and scum; it will go in your laddle on it's own and you barely have to move the laddle.

For storing, I use ice cube trays. I line them with plastic wrap first because it's hard to get them out o/w. I then put them in a zip-lock and freeze them for several months.

[84RHONDA]

Final hour of reduction of my espagnole and veal stock. Wow, to all those that make stock/demi glace, my hat's off to you. Man what a time consuming process . All that skimming, reduction, straining etc.....But you know what, it's quite an interesting and well worth it process. Considering that one starts with 8 lbs of pounds, 6 liters of water, and the end result is 1 liter of final product. But my kitchen is filled an awesome aroma right now

thanks for the ice cube trick. I made chicken stock before and I was wondering how to remove the ice cubes. Now I know.

[Anneke]

I like to use 12 lbs of bones myself and I use 2 stockpots. If I'm going to go through the trouble, I'm going to make LOTS!

BTW, you mentioned Espagnole. THis raises an interesting question. We are taught to use espagnole in school but I never do. THe restaurants where I have worked also concur with me on this. Anyone else have a comment about this?

Keep in mind that espagnole contains flour and flour does not freeze well.

I just strain my veal stock, then reduce it right down until it's really thick and hardens at room temp. Be careful not to overreduce as you risk burning it (you won't know you're burning it as it doesn't show right away) thus imparting a very bitter flavour.

[mirepoix man]

well I was taught that the formula for demi glace was 50% brown stock and 50% brown sauce ( Espagnole) reduced by half. Regarding glace de veau/viande, it was just the stock, reduced from about 15 litres to 1 awesome litre

[Anneke]

Aha! That's what I've been making: glace, NOT demi!

[Chef Nosko]

Question regarding the adding of vegetables to the bones.

I think it is important to brown the bones first, then add the vegetables, then the tomato product (paste--what have you).

You want to get as much browning action as possible. If you add the vegetables to the bones right away.....the vegetables will caramelize, but the bones will not brown as evenly.

You can get added color from on "Onion Cloute" (not sure on the spelling). Stud a half onion on the flat side with whole cloves.....add a little oil to the surface, and cook on a cast iron skillet, or smoky hot saute pan until the surface is black.
This will add color, and flavor, but will not taste burnt. This is added during the stock making process.

Skimming is an important step. The impurities rise to the top during the simmering action. If you take the round part of a large ladle, and start in the middle and slowly work your way to the outside---you can scoop up the waste around the walls of the stock pot, and this will keep you from scooping up large amounts of good stock with the waste. Work slowly, and skim often.

Good Luck,

Chef Nosko
Boston, MA

[Anneke]

Chef Nosko, I think the question regarding the vegetables was when do you add them to the stock pot: at the same time as the roasted bones or a few hours after?

[cape chef]

Well theres nothing for me to add here,

The best part of this thread to read was the detailed assistence to Not-Rhonda
Anneke...you are turning into quite the Culinarian. Bravo!!!
cc

[Chef Nosko]

Anneke:

My mistake....thank you for the clarification.

I have always added the browned mirpoix to the stock at the same time as the browned bones, and this has worked well.

I checked out a few sources to see if it is done differently.

The Escoffier Cookbook-----browned bones & browned vegetables added at the same time.

Johnson & Wales University----browned vegetables two hours after browned bones in water that has returned to a simmer.

California Culinary Academy----browned bones & browned vegetables added at the same time.

Professional Cooking--Wayne Gisslen---Brown bones first...add to water---bring to a boil, reduce to a simmer. Brown vegetables & tomato product while stock is starting. Add when they are browned. If you desire you can hold back the vegetables & tomato product until 3 to 4 hours before the stock is finished.

As you can see there are several ways to go about it. Which way is the best???? I do not know.

This is not a complete list, but just a few reference books that I have laying around.

In many restaurants additional onions, skins, celery, carrots, leeks, etc are added at various times during the cooking process to help develop flavor, & color.

A stock is done when it has developed the flavor & color that you are looking for. This might take 8 hours one time, and 9-1/2 or 10 hours the next.

Best of luck with your stock making,

Chef Nosko
Boston, MA

[Chef Nosko]

I should have said "the browned mirepoix to the stock pot"(in the first sentence not "to the stock").

I do not want to confuse anyone.

Take care,

Chef Nosko
Boston, MA

[kokopuffs]

I suggest that you consult the Time/Life book entitled TERRINES, PATES AND GALANTINES for an excellent treatment on making demi glace and stocks. The procedure is detailed enabling me to succeed in making clear demiglace. Tastes soooo good!