[Marzoli]

Thanks for all your suggestions!
As for the cut of meat: the beef roasts were either chuck or arm--the pork was just greasy, but I was assured that it would be falling apart tender (not at all!). I don't know what cut it was except that it was not loin.
I think after reading all your comments that I am overcooking. The butcher I go to is a private business, not a grocery store butcher. He always tells me to long, slow cook the beef roast in the crockpot on low for 8-10 hours.
As for the pork roast, I had this idea of using this clay baker to do it so that I could have lots of leftover roast to use later for Mexican food. I asked the lady who was working at the meat shop that day and she gave me a roast with some fat--said she uses that cut because it gets so tender. I put it in the clay baker at the temp it called for in its recipe book (475) for 90 minutes. Part of it was still bloody--not a good sign for me. I don't know if the clay baker is the problem or if I'm just missing the part of the brain that can cook a decent roast of either pork or beef. It just seems like I should be able to do it--I used to be able to, but I don't remember how I did it. I like the crockpot because I work, but so far nothing has been tender in this particular one.
I know they sell the cooking bag at the store where I shop, so I will try that. I remember using one a long time ago.
Oh well, enough whining!
Thanks for your help.
Oh, yeah, Shroomgirl, my husband has promised me a visit to your farmer's market this summer. I think it will actually happen this time. I will look for you.

[Marzoli]

Thanks for all the help! I'll try again til I get it right.

[shroomgirl]

475* way way too hot.....

[Marzoli]

I wondered about that, but the clay roaster said 475 so that's what I did. What temp should it be? I soaked the pot according directions. Is the clay roaster just a bad pot to do roast in? I was looking for something to use instead of a crockpot.
Thanks for the info.

[marmalady]

Absolutely agree with Shroom re temperature - for braises and stews, low and slow is the way to go!!I've put briskets and pork shoulders in at 250 for 5-6-7 hours; just put em in and forget em!

I don't think you need any kind of clay pot, or crockpot; a heavy dutch-oven pot with a lid is good. Season the meat, then brown in some oil on top of the stove, add some liquid - water, stock, wine, beer, tomato sauce, whatever, cover and put in the oven. Your nose will tell you and your taste buds, too; my mouth starts watering when that wonderful smell starts wafting through the house. You don't have to fuss with it or baste it; just check about every hour or so that there's still a little liquid in the pot; I think for a braise, you want the liquid to come about 1/3 of the way up the meat.

Another thing I do when I make 'faux' barbeque pork, is to put the pork shoulder on a rack over a sheet pan or brownie pan. Pour about 1/2 inch water in the pan, and some liquid smoke. Then cover the whole thing lightly with foil, and roast at about 275 for 4-5 hours. Tender, falling off the bone, moist, smokey flavor (I know Peachcreek is going to kill me!!).

[W.DeBord]

Hum Marmalady I'm guessn you've lived in the mid-west for a while. My Iowa farm boy taught me how to make a mean pot roast and pork roast. Before I was WAY over thinking it and I kind of think you have that happening here too. The way Marmalady described is our method too, don't know anyone in the mid-west who doesn't cook them this way. We also lay slices of onion ontop of the meats to season while cooking. I have a fabulous cookbook on Diners of the 50's if you want I can post the name....unbelievable stews/roasts plain ole family cooking stuff.

I can't imagine cooking a pot roast or pork roast with-out braising? The darn clay pan has got to be sucking your juices out (no?)I wouldn't use it. We use a reg. roasting pan. Season and brown in frying pan, add about 3/4" h20 to the bottom of your pan, add any veg.'s you want (usually carrots and potatos). Cover tightly with foil bake at 325 for 2 hours or till supper time. This isn't something you can over cook easily it can cook for 3 plus hours and be fine (also any cut of beef works well, with pork make sure it has some fat on it).

If you want to go totally mid-western I'll share with you my secret recipe from grandma Vel. Sounds gross to a gourmet but it's really pretty good.

Brown pork chops that have been dipped in seasoned (s & p) flour in bacon fat. Lightly saute one onion. Place both in a baking pan. Use remaining 2 tbsp. seasoned flour and make it into a roux with bacon drippings. Add 1 can cream of mushroom soup (cambells) and 2 c. milk. Stir into a sauce and pour over chops and onions. Cover tightly with foil and bake at 325 for and hour and a half or so.

That is as mid-western family cooking as you can get. The meat practically falls off the bone and the gravy is really not too bad (yes soup in it). Serve with mashed potatos and home grown tomatos. It's great.

[marmalady]

Not from the midwest at all - grew up in Pittsburgh, PA, then Boston (aaaah, the '60's!), then Charleston, SC for 15 years. I think good ole' 'home cookin' is very similar regionally; method remains the same, with local/ethnic tweaks according to region.

The braise or pot roast, I learned from my Granny, who lived on a farm and raised their own cattle/chickens; the 'faux' barbeque I learned in SC, from locals, and also my martial arts instructor (Japanese-Hawaiian) who would make 'faux luau kahlua pig' in the oven, using the rack over smokey water technique, and wrapping a pork shoulder or butt in banana leaves. This when he couldn't find a place to dig a pit, get out the lava rocks, and do the whole pig in the pit!!!!

I believe in simple is better; the more you mess with food, the more temperamental it gets; except, of course, for you pastry folks - mess away!!!

[Marzoli]

I've learned a lot from reading your posts!
Today, I tried a loin roast on top of the stove--used it for a Mexican dish--it was okay, but as usual I cooked it too long--my husband does not like any pink at all, and in my efforts to accomplish that, I did overcook it a bit. It was okay though.
I think one of my problems before was that he does not like pork steak at all, and the roast I used is the one they cut pork steak from. I don't know about the clay roaster--today I used an electric pot called a "Chef Pot". It worked fine--simmered and all. My stove is electric and I have trouble controlling the heat so I have a bunch of electric pots with thermostats!
I think I'm getting the general idea now, and I'll try again later.
The meat was good sauteed with peppers, onions, garlic, and lots of hot peppers and spices, and a bit of the roast broth. Just a little dry.
Thanks guys!

[alexia]

Marzoli, sorry you are continuing to have such trouble. You have a lot of good advice in the previous posts, some of which suggest what I am going to repeat. You need to match the cut of meat to the method of cooking it. Your trouble is compounded by the dearth of properly fatty meat in the markets. IMHO the fat and gelatinous matter is what makes meat tender. (Just don't eat it as often is my motto.)

For braising I would never use the loin. I like shank, brisket, chuck, shoulder, short ribs, oxtail, etc. Cuts that are gelatinous give your sauce/gravy a wonderful texture. But never let the liquid actually boil. Forget magical temperatures, just don't let it boil either stovetop or in oven, simmer gently. (But do use an oven thermometer to moniter the actual temperature vs the thermostat setting.)

I would suggest reading about how to use various cuts of meat. There's no such thing as a good cut in a categorical way, only cuts that are good for certain cooking techniques. My recollection is Madelaine Kamman gives extensive info. In all likelihood Shirley Corriher does. I believe the early editions of Joy does. Others may have better suggestions for you. Such study will repay you by saving you vexation and pointless expense.

I usually start my braises on the stovetop to bring to temperature and put in preheated oven. I typically use a LeCrueset French oven and will often put a piece of parchment directly on top of the food or just under the lid. You may find that adding something acidic such as wine, a little mild vinegar, even a little tomato will help. Also, you may find that everything will take better if you cook it the day before you intend to use it. It has the added advantage that you can easily remove all the congealed rendered fat before reheating. I also like to set the vegetables aside after browning and reintroduce them towards the end of the cooking so that they do not taste like mush.

Good luck.

[Marzoli]

Just curious: is there a reason not to let the meat boil?
I didn't boil the meat--I simmered it really slow. I know I got it too done--could tell that by the meat thermometer! Just let it go too long because I wanted to not have any pink. Kept checking the temp and sure enough it shot up before I caught it. I'll do better next time.
I understand the idea that you need the fat, but I guess if my husband hates the taste of pork steak, I shouldn't use the roast they make pork steak from--I know the loin is very lean--the butcher told me all about that. We settled on the loin because that is the cut he uses for butterfly pork chops and my husband likes that meat. That's how I arrived at the loin. I know that the meat at the Mexican restaurant we go to is juicier, but it is seasoned so well that the
I remember the day when I used to just go to the grocery store (instead of a real meat shop) and buy what was on sale. My meat selections have improved since then!
I'm learning.

[alexia]

You'll need someone more scientific than I am to tell you what happens (technically) when protein boils. But practically speaking, it gets tough as it seizes up like a clenched fist against the heat. When you get one of the cuts I suggested (as opposed to loin) there is fat and connective tissue that "melts" as you cook it slowly and makes the meat more tender. Go to the supermarket and look at the meat in the case. The cheapest cuts are generally speaking the cuts you braise. The more expensive ones, like loin, steaks, rib roasts, etc. are not. I also routinely choose meat with as much fat as the market allows. (Then skim it off the surface or if cold just lift the solidified fat off in large sheets.

I have use hind quarter cuts for making a New England boil. They are not really fatty cuts and are simmered whole very gently, then cut thinly against the grain. The way you cut the meat can also affect the tenderness.

In fact, many people do not boil "hard boiled" eggs, but bring them TO the boil and turn off the heat, letting them continue to cook in the hot water for about 10 minutes, then drop them into a pan of cold water. The whites will become firm, but not hard and rubbery. Try a little experiment that will illustrate this. Two pots, two eggs. Do one as I suggested, boil the other. Many will not find the difference in the eggs significant, but most people will find it significant when it happens to meat.

[marmalady]

Marzoli - I think you're confusing the cuts of meat and differences between roasting, and braising/stewing/pot-roast.

Roasting meat involves a dry pan (or very minimal liquid or oil on bottom of pan), open roasting pan, and roasting at medium to high temperatures. Cuts of meat for roasting are the more tender ones, and should be at least 2-3 inches thick - Beef and pork tenderloin, NY Strip steak, prime rib roast, etc.

Braising meat involves maybe an initial browning, then adding liquid and maybe vegetables, and continuing to cook low and slow, barely at a simmer, til the meat is fork tender. Can be done on top of stove, or in the oven, and the pot of choice is a dutch oven, or a heavy covered pot.

I would highly, highly recommend you purchase this book; I think it will become your 'meat bible'! "The Complete Meat Cookbook" by Bruce Aidells and Denis Kelly. Very readable, broken down very simply and easy to understand, and great recipes and ideas.

[chefboy2160]

Well said marmalady , protien is tough at first . Tougher cuts and stew meat take 2 to 3 hours to simmer until tender . Your best cuts you want to eat medium rare to medium . The marbeling of the fat in the meat and the cut determine its way of cooking . Talk to your butcher to learn the way , they do this for a living .

[Marzoli]

I'll be on the lookout for that book. I am beginning to understand, though. My next big adventure is to do the loin roast in the oven on a rack. Should I put water in bottom? I don't think the recipe I have calls for it.
I want to make this meat taste Mexican--this recipe calls for a sort of rub using Mexican seasonings and bread crumbs.

[alexia]

Three suggestions, Marzoli. If you dont have these:

Get an oven thermometer to make sure the temperature in your oven is properly calibrated. That way, if you set the thermostat to, say, 375f, you know the actual temperature is 375f.

Secondly. Get a thermometer to check the internal temperature and use something like Joy of Cooking to find out what internal temperature the meat should be for it to be rare, medium, etc. according to the way you like it. You can either get an instant read thermometer or the kind that you stick into the meat as you begin roasting.

Lastly, most meat recipes call for resting the meat 15-20 minutes before cutting and eating (except braises, of course). The meat will continue to "cook" after you remove it from the oven, so remove it about 5 degrees less than your desired final temperature.

I prefer dry roasting. Sometimes with fowl I will put a little water in the pan with the bird well above it and baste. With other meat I prefer not having the moisture in the oven atmosphere and will let it self baste (or use some sort of fat/oil if the roast doesn't have enough by itself).

Good luck.