Ok you food history buffs..lets have a "Symposium"

[Athenaeus]

Killing the germs , seems to be the reason that in antiquity they used to mix wine and water.

A very intriguing detail.
When the ancient Greeks wanted to purify a place they were spilling wine on the ground and the started sulfurizing the whole area!!

Funny because it seems that the passed by the invention that changed the whole procedure in wine making. The use of sulphur in keeping away the bacteria that turn wine into vinegar!!

They had the wine the had the sulphur but they didn't think to use both in order to prolong the life or their wines.We had to wait for Pasteur to acquire this knowledge.

But to return to the symposia.

The word wine comes from the greek word oinos.

Oinos was the dark , think fluid that had to be mixed in the krater with water in order to become what is known even in modern greek as krasi
Oinos + water mixed in the bell-shaped vessel called crater and we had the wine they drunk

Well the mixing proposing usually they were made for light wines as cape chef mentioned BUT
the host was keeping in his house two kraters-mixxing bowls.
One with light wine and a finer one for his own friends

Hard to forget the scene from Iliad where the angry Achilles asks from his dear friend Patroclus to pass him a glass of wine " ...But Patroclus...make it strong ".

Have I told you about the game that was performed during the Symposia by wine and it was a kind of " wine-shooting" ? Kottavos?

Oh well. let me drink my wine first.

[Dear Abby]

How very charming! Dear Abby very much enjoyed her visit in Greece last winter. She especially loved Mount Pangeo, where Dionysos was purportedly bred. Here she was introduced to the exceptional Imiglykos Red.

Greece, to Dear Abby, means the hillsides of Mount Pangeo.

Abby

[cape chef]

A Little more, on water and wine.

When the preliminary phase of eating was over,
The baqueters, after washing their hands, received garlands for their heads,
Chest, and cups. The crown, a symbol of initiation, was the physical sign of membership representing the link created by drinking together.

As in theater, once the scene was set, the sacred phase of the meeting could begin.
Imagine it being very silent, or (euphemia), which predisposed those present to make contact with the gods.

Before mixing water and wine in the Krater, each banqueter received a cup of undiluted wine in which to pour a few drops in honor of the good spirit (agathos daimon). This was the religious act that formilized a communal link and sealed an eternal bond.

Wine and water where mixed according to proportions dictated by the type of entertainment that would take place. (Plu. Quaest. Conv. 657d). The almost barbaric mixing of two parts wine to one part water, mentioned by Alcaeus, must have been very rare and certainly was intended for a very special occasion (fr. 364V.) A Krater in which equal parts of water and wine had been poured was considered dangerous and bound to lead to drunkenness in a very short time.

Such a mixture was reserved for symposia in which entertainment was more important then serious matters, as repeatedly mentioned by playwrights. Less alcohol mixtures, of tweo or three parts of water to one part wine, were recommended by Hesiod (Op. 696) and regarded by Plutarch as the mixture of perfect balance.

Before the servents started mixing the wine, the symposiarch was appointed.
Apart from the distinction between young and old men, this was the only sign of hierarchy to be found in symposia, and it is not clear when the practice began. The position of symposiarch did not necessarily reflect official power, indicating the independence of meeting from the rules governing public life. The symposiarch establishes the ratio of wine to water, the number of Kraters to set out, and the forms of entertainment to amuse the group.

He was the only person who could violate the rules of equality, obliging some to drink more then others or to demonstrate their abilities.

Once the wine had been prepared, the servents filled the cups from a jug (oinocoe) or ladle. With the wine from the first Krater, libations were made to Zeus and the Olympic family. The second was dedicated to the spirits of heroes, while the third was drunk in the honor of Zeus Soter.
The sacrificial part of the feast was accompaoned by a double flute and a chorus singing of paean, which could be followed poetry or the recital of brief sections of hymns to those divinities that had some purpose of the meeting.

After the introduction of the entertainment, appeitizers were then served to stimulate the thirst-cheeses and different types of bread (traghemata) can be seen on archaic vases and are mentioned on numerous occasions by playwrights ( Ath. XIV.64oc-658). In it'’ later more festive part, known as the Komos, the symposium often moved out into the streets.

The Krater was carried outside by the dancing participants in a drunken parade, more or less unruly, accompanied by the flautist. Scenes of this type can be seen on vases from the end of the fifth century B.C.

The immutable nature of the rite was accompanied by the evolution in the function and symbolic values of the symposium.

[momoreg]

Just a couple of thoughts:

How many people usually attended these functions?

I would imagine that the wine they drank was very very strong, because 1 wine to 3 waters wouldn't be very good at all today. (I would think that since there were prostitutes present, they were given the strong stuff).

And what type of entertainment did they have?

I'm assuming the Egyptians also made wine, yes? Or were the Greeks the first?

[cape chef]

I have to run out for a while now, but I will say that I believe that the wine served at the symposium was made from the must of the first pressing, making it a very harsh and high in alcohol.

Like Grappa (kind of)

I will do some reading later and try to help you with these questions, I should say, again I am not sure. That the reason the wine was made with the pomace must was because the first pressing of juice made the wine for the upper crust

cc

[cape chef]

Momoreg, I copied and pasted this from the Egyptian thread.
It gives a little info on who was first with wine.
I hope it helps
cc



I second that, Your library must be incredible.

I was able to come up with some imformation as well, There is a great book by HPB, it's called isis unvieled. Most public libraries have it.

HPB says " Egypt pressed there own grapes and made wine, nothing remarkable in that , so far, but she brewed her own beer, and in great quinity-our egyptolgist goes on to say. The ebers manuscript proves know, beyond a dought that the egyptians used beer 2.000 years B.C Thier beer must have been strong and excellent-like everything they did (isis p.543)

Long ago i was interested in microbioligy and gained a diploma in zymurgy from a reputable british institution. The more I learned about the chemistry and bioligy of winemaking and brewing, the more I was amazed at thier history.making wine in fact is easy, even inevitable. Out a bunch of grapes in a container and, chances are, some yeast cells will settle in and you'll wind up with wine.The same for mead made with honey water.

Beer is another matter.To make beer you moisten barley (or some other grain)keep it moist until it germinates, then heat the grain to stop the germination (the result is called malt) and finally add water and yeast so the malt sugars fement. At first blush this procedure dosen't appear to be the kind of thing one would stumble on by accident(natural history p.24)

In ancient Egypt, the beer of kings was a sophisticated brew
By John Noble Wilford.

No temple friezes and certainly no billboards proclaimed it the king of beers, but it was the beer of pharohs, and of thier own workers whose labors on pyramids and statly tombs were rewarded with a generous flow of the brews that made ancient memphis or thebes famous.

Artistic depictions and written sourses attest to beer's popularity in early egypt. The elite and hoi polloi alike enjoyed beers with names likeJoy bringer, The baeutiful and heavely They drank through tubes from ceramic cups and sometimes did not know when to say when. An Egyptian papyrus of 1400 bc warned of dangers of loose talk in the taverns in witch they drank beer.

Scholors have not been sure how the egyptian brewed there beer In some temple art it appeared that beer was made by crumbling bread into water and letting it ferment by yeast from the bread. yielding a coarse liquid swimming with chatt.But a researcher at cambridge University in England has now examined beer residues and desiccated bread loaves from Egyptian tombs and found evidence of much more sophisticated brewing techniques in the second millennium B.C.

In a report published by Dr Delwen Samual in the Joural of science ( He is a research associate of archeology at Cambridge) said" The current conceptions about ancient Egptian bread and beer making should be modified" A microscopic analysis of beer residues, she said, indicated a more elabrate brewing process, Blending cooked and uncooked malt with water and producing a refined liquid free from husk.

The Microstructure of the residues Dr, Samual concluded, " Is remarkably similar to that of modern cereal foods"

In an accompanying article by, Dr Glnnis Jones, a researcher at the University of Sheffield in England, Who studies cereal- processing methodes, said the findings were," The first real scientific evidence for the ancient brewing techniques."

The study was made possible because it was a practice of ancient Egyptians to leave food and beer in thier tombs for the sustenence in the afterlife and the arid climate preserved those remains. Dr. Samual examined with optical and electron microscopes nearly 70 loaves of bread from several sites and beer residues from more than 200 pottery vessels found amoung the ruins of workers villages.

Almost all the bread was made from a wheat called emmer, sometimes flavored with coriander and fig. Both emmer and barley- not barley alone, as previoasly thought- were used for brewing. No flavorings have been detected in there residues.

An Analysis of starch granuals , in particular, showed that the Egyptian did not use lightly baked bread as the main ingredient in brewing. Instead, they seemed to use a two part process. The grains were deliberatly sprouted and heated to provide sugar and flavor. The cooking made the grain more susceptible to attack by the enzymes that convert starch into sugars. This batch was then mixed with sprouted but unheated grains in water. Yeast was added to the combination of sugar and starch in solution, and this fermented to make beer.

Eariler this year, Dr Samual and Dr barry kemp, a Cambridge Egpytologist, in collaboration with a british brewery, brewed an ale according to the recipe inferred from this recent research. The beverage was slightly cloudy with a golden hue." It does not taste like any beer I have ever had before, "Dr Samual siaid" It's very rich, very malty and has a flavor that reminds you a little of Chardonnay.


__________________
Baruch ben Rueven / Chana

[Athenaeus]

The number of guests in a Symposium varied and depended on the capacity of the house of the guest.
Rich citizens had separate rooms in their house to prganise their Symposia.

I think that we need to clarify something here.

Symposium was not a dinner.

A Symposium was what was happening after dinner.

According to our literary sources after dinner the room was cleaned, the tables were removed and a big krater (mixing bowl for wine and water) was placed in the middle of the room.

Symposiun was about drinking wine, get dizzy or drunk and start doing things , having some rules and limits dictated by the host that you do not do in your everyday life.

Music was important. Music and women.

Many things have been written regarding the presence of Prostitutes in those meetings.

I think the answer is more simple than it appears. Think what you are able to do after having much to drink.

[Devotay]

Momo!

According to Hugh Johnson, in his marvelous book and PBS series on the history of wine, it was first made in Georgia (the republic, not the state) as much as 10,000 years ago! He points out that wine is a food "Simpler in a sense than bread. For bread you need a recipe - wine can make itself!"

The Georgians would put the juice in large amphora-like vessels and bury them for up to 2 years. Wine is still made this way in many parts of Georgia.

Some biblical scholars put the place where Noah's ark landed at Mt. Ararat, not far from georgia, in what is now Turkey (I believe). The first thing Noah did upon disembarking was to plant vines! Later, much to the dismay of his embarrassed children, he drank the wine from these vines and became "uncovered"

All this according to Hugh Johnson, as I said. Were I to have the opportunity to ask him, I would inquire as to who Noah children were embarrassed in front of .

[Athenaeus]

Devotay !!!

[Athenaeus]

Ok! We have enjoyed our dinner, prepared by a professional cook, hired by our host on the occasion of our symposium.

The food was wonderful. Not expensive, if we lived in Ancient Athens , because according to the Laws of the city, showing off wealth was severely punished.

Our Host has hired the cook and his assistant for a high price and our cook, according to the agreement has gone with his assistance early in the morning to buy the freshest of ingredients from the market.

So, we have finished our dinner, the tables were removed from our room , the krater ( the mixing bowl for wine and water) is placed in the middle of the room

It’s still Spring so we really don’t need to put our mixing bowl in a Psyktir – an ancient refrigerator to keep it cool .

So our servants do not have to be anxious about supplying the “refrigerator” with cold water all the time

While the mixture of wine was prepared, small tables are placed in front of us having dried fruits and nuts to escort our wine

We have drunk some wine, we have relaxed and some of us have starting the teasing I think we all agree that it’s time to play!!

Let’s play cottabos!!!

A game “invented” as everything “spicy” in classical antiquity, in Sicily.

What was cottabos?

Cottabos was a game, much in vogue at the Symposia during 5th and 4th century BC.
The drop of wine that was left in the drinking cup was tossed at a small bronze figure poised on a lamp-stand.
As you toss the drop, you shout the name of your…friend you are sentimentally interested.

The manner of its fall foretold the love fortunes of the thrower…

I attach you a photo of a Symposium scene while cottabos is played.

In this scene you can see two women. The one left she is shouting to her friend that he is not visible in the picture “ This one is for you, Oh ! Efthymedes!”
I haven’t imagined this, it is inscribed on the pot J

( Kylix (drinking cup of 5th ce BC , Paul Ghetty Museum)

What do you think? Nice game! Right?

For the picture see below

[Athenaeus]

Well, Let's face it I will never make it with computers...
I just can't make it work with the photo...

[Athenaeus]

last attempt to upload the photo...

[Pete]

Athenaeus, tried to open the link but couldn't find the picture you were talking about.

Back to the question of mixing water and wine. Were they trying to dilute the harseness of it? Or the alcohol content? If they were trying to dilute the alcohol content, why? Wine, by virtue of being a naturally fermented beverage (no distillation) can only achieve a moderate level of alcohol. What, 15-16% at the greatest? Where ancient Greeks "lightweights" by today's standards (no offense meant), or is it because they would consume vast quanitites at these events. It takes me a 1 1/2 bottles before I consider myself drunk. By diluting that with twice the water I would need to consume the equivilant of 4 1/2 bottles of wine.

[Athenaeus]

I think I have resolved - after 1000 attempts - the issue of the photo, I thought I could make it appear but then I noticed that the IMG code was off

Much have been written about wine and water.

We have to remember that the wine, the oinos that they were mixing with water had nothing to do with the wine we know.

It was a thick, dark liquid of very intense and sour flavour that it wasn't possible to be consumed without water anyway...

It must have been high in alchohol because from ancient authors we find out that they were using oinos without water for disinfecting wounds...
Like we do with pure alchohol.

Pete, allow me please to remark that whether you drink 1 bottle of wine or 1 bottle of wine dilluted in 1 litre of water you have taken the same quantity of alchohol...
Alchohol is not dissolved in water. The taste might be lighter yes, but the conciseness in alchohol remains the same.

That's why doctors suggest , if you get easily dizzy by drinking alchoholic drinks, never mix them with water because all you have succeeded is drinking the double quantity and helping the alchohol come in your blood more quickly

[Pete]

I should have clarified myself. I would be drinking the equivalant of 4 1/2 bottles of liquid to achieve the same level of drunkedness if the wine was being diluted at a 2:1 ratio (water to wine).

So the diluting of wine really had to do with a palatability issue and not an alcohol content issue?