Parmentier

[ziggy]

thanks for all the input everyone! for what it's worth...i certainly don't disagree with any of you that this isn't a classical cut. But if they ask me to show any of these well...then it's good information to have classical cut or not, right? I figure these are things that a lot of people may not know, so being a bit competetive ( ) the more info i have to pull from the better....

Again, many thanks for all the efforts from all of you!!!!!!!

[Suzanne]

According to the CIA's New Professional Chef, paysanne IS a basic cut: kind of a skinny dice, 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/8.

[cape chef]

No need not to say your sorry to me "ever"

The imformation here is wonderful and genuine.
Being trained in classical French cuisine, my stance is a little differnt then perhaps the CIAs or other books and sourses.

You see to me Paysanne, will always apply to the way the vegetables are cooked and served in the style of the peasant.

The cut you refere to is most assoiciated with paysanne, as is the cut with parmentier, but I guess my quandry (sp) is that the true meaning of these words are being changed and diluted to fit a schools sylibis for study.
To me they are all Pomme du terres anyway, with there unigue applications.
I think Ziggy, if you follow the info here in regards to you question on Parmentier you will do fabulous

May I suggest though Ziggy, when you have some free time, try to find some older classic French cook/reference books and study these things, you will find an incredible wealth of imformation and documented history behind these things we are discussion.

Please let us know how things evolve for you!
cc

[Pete]

Suzanne, sorry, but I have to agree with Cape Chef. Paysanne is a method of preparation, not a cut, at least according to classic French cuisine. One of the downfalls (or joys, depending on how you look at it) in American cuisine is that we are not really tied to traditional definitions. Look at the word confit and how it is used. We have had numerous discussions on this subject here. Americans tend to bastardize words to create new meanings, only remotely resembling the original.

Paysanne (according to LaRousse, 1960 English translation 1977)
-method of preparing butcher's meat and poultry, usually braised and accompanied by a garnish of carrots, turnips, onions and celery sliced and lightly cooked in butter, pieces of scalded and fried lean bacon, and potatoes cut down to a uniform small size.

[marmalady]

CC & Pete, and Ziggy, and Suzanne, and everyone -

Okay - two different issues here;

1) The term parmentier as it is defined in classic French cuisine, in the ways that CC and Pete have presented it.

2) The term parmentier as it seems to be defined by Ziggy's examiners for the competition, and as the term has apparently 'evolved' in French/American cuisine.

Zig, I think if you go to the competition knowing in your little heart of hearts what it TRULY is, but then ace your exam with doing the cut the examiners want to see, you will have learned not one, but two new bits of culinary wisdom!!!!

Don't want to start the 'evolution of food terms' here again, and you guys are absolutely correct in the historical definition of the word; but - 'fess up now - how many of you have put juuuust a touch of something like, oh, say soy sauce, in a gravy - or a vinaigrette - or even a meat loaf. Historically correct application of soy sauce no! Delicious - yes!

[cape chef]

Dear Marmalady,

I agree with you on every point but your last one, I think your reference to soy ETC, is more about fusion cooking than it is about the foundation of this particular discussion

If I make a Panko fried softshell crab over mizuna, with a ginger, clemitine, soy "vinaigrette"I would consider the vinaigrette "fusion"

And yes, of course I prepare foods with a combination of different ethnic componets. That's when I want to "play" so to speak

If I prepare a Roasted pheasant, paysanne style in the fall, you will get the classic.

This is a great thread because we are helping eachother and seeing people think about the classics, the key here, like marmalady said is for Ziggy to kick arse

[Anneke]

Pete, I have the new Larousse Gastro. What I found interesting is that all the 'cuts' are defined as a foodstuff that happens to be cut in a certain way. It is not described as solely 'a cut', but a preparation as well.

For example:

Julienne: Foodstuffs, esp vegetables, that are cut into thin sticks, with a knife or mandoline, (dimensions). The julienne is cooked in butter ina covered pan until quite soft and used for etc...

Brunoise: Theis French term is aplied both to a method of cutting veg into a minute dice and to the resulting diced veg. Often braised in butter, brunoise is used for garnishes etc.... )... Brunoise is usually used as soon as it is ready but can be kept briefly etc...

Paysanne: A mixture of veg (...) cut into small squares and used to make soups known as potages taillés or to garnish meat, fish or omelettes. Potatoes and carrots prepared en paysanne are first cut into small sticks (8-10 mm) which are in turn cut into thin slices. Cabbage leaves are cut into strips (8-10mm) and each strip is cut into small squares. (etc) By extension, the term à la paysanne describes various braised dishes cooked with softened veg; the veg need NOT necessarily be cut en paysanne. (etc)


Soooooo... All three have in common that they are described as cuts AND as preparation. But paysanne definitely is a cut according to larousse. I spoke to an old French chef about that once who also recognised it as a cut...

One of those mysteries of the kitchen I guess!

PS No mention of a Parmentier cut

[marmalady]

Dear CC,

Just for the sake of a lively discussion, what if the classically trained French chef one day used the description of parmentier to describe to his apprentice how he wanted the taters cut for another dish - not the pomme parmentier - just the cut, say in a gratin, or saute, whatever. The apprentice, being ever grateful that Chef has shared with him this seemingly new 'cut' of potato, goes on to his own chefdom and restaurant, where he then teaches HIS apprentices the 'parmentier' cut!! And so it begins!

With the soy sauce, I was trying to get across that a classical application of soy sauce would not be a vinaigrette; some classically trained Japanese chefs cringe at what we 'round-eyes' put soy sauce on! But we all do it, and so soy sauce has become almost a staple pantry item.

I LOVE THIS!!!

[cape chef]

Dear marmalady,

A classical trained chef would not use the term Parmentier to describe the cut he/she is looking for. He would use it to describe the "recipe and Method" bruniose, would be the cut he would ask for.

If I ask an apprentice to prepare Chateau potatoes, I will ask him/her for a medium Tourne, because Chateau potatoes is a cooking methode applyied to tourned spuds

[marmalady]

Dear CC,

Oh, well I tried! It was a thought, tho, right? Right?!!! I concede!

[ShawtyCat]

I was just reading through "The Sauce Bible by David Paul Larousse" again and came to Appendix A (page 351) where I found something very interesting.

Appendix A is called The Basic Cuts and under Potatoes it says.

English - Medium Dice
French - Parmentier
Description/Dimension - 1/3 - 1/2" square

So I guess Parmentier is a basic cut (medium dice) for potatoes.

[kuan]

And how would one make Potage Parmentier without putting the potatoes through a mill? I think the confusion lies in our predisposition to associate word and object without accounting for history. After all, that's they way we're taught how to read and write.

I think Parmentier refers to the method of preparation introduced by or most commonly associated with Mr. Parmentier himself, used in the same way as Rosinni (tournedos) or Bordelaise (sauce).

Kuan

[shoesblow]

i was always taught very rigid definitions of classic knife cuts... no approximations of 1/3"-1/2"... esp for a competition/test where they just about break out the ruler on all your cuts... if youre off, youre off... end of story...

brunoisette - 1/16"^3
brunoise - 1/8"^3
macedoine - 1/4^3
parmentier - 1/2"^3
carre - 3/4"^3

[kuan]

??? Huh?? The standard judging form has only the following cuts:

Julienne, Brunoise, Batonnet, Dice, Tournee, Rondelle, Paysanne. That's it, no parmentier.

Kuan

[b1pju89]

hello ziggy, 30 yrs in this business and still learning,i also would be interested in the answer to that. ?