Haccp

[ShawtyCat]

Ive got the book.....maybe I need to reread it. Isn't all that documentation a little tedious, CC? Maybe we just need someone whos responsibility it is to monitor the HACCP. Ive tried to follow the guidelines and it is very hard to do that, cook and try to monitor everyone else. Especially when you don't speak their language all that well.

Sorry....very frustrating day. At least my butter cookies came out perfect. How would you recommend implementing a better HACCP system in a very tiny restaurant where all the help speaks a different language? Im in need of some guidance.

Jodi

[cape chef]

You have a challenge,

I understand this all to well, I have a number of employees who also do not speak or read english (some not at all, some a bit)

I called the quality assurance and regulatory compliance for translated material

1-800-926-7426,ext 6421 or (781)-372-6000, ext 6241

[phatch]

It will get computerized. Imagine bar codes, a scanner, and a PDA. Walk through, wand some things, data is automatically entered and time and date stamped. Thermometer/pyrometers would be part of the package too, probably.

Coupled with an inventory software, you can sort things out by date/expiration to quickly use up/throw out items.

Next time you fill out a software questionaire, or talk to a VAR or representative, ask for it. Show them there's a market.

Phil

[ShawtyCat]

So the material can be obtained in different languages.....ahhh.

Thank you CC! That would be much better than trying to use my terrible spanish to translate what should be done.

I just had a brainstorm! Duh! If you can get translations in Spanish, shouldn't they make this manual in Spanis also? They did say that spanish was the unofficial second language of the USA. Ill call the numbers you gave me CC, and also try to track down a HACCP manual in Spanish also. (Have to make sure they can read it also....some of my guys didnt go to high school where they are from. Just left the farm and worked)

I was having trouble with them reading the expiration dates and would have to show up periodically (even when Im not on duty) to make sure that nothing that has expired is in the walk ins. Last time I found a package of really black ground beef and a box of heavy cream that was curdling. Eww.

Jodi

[Pete]

Most all manuals published for the restaurant industry are printed in English, Spanish, and in many cases Chinese (usually Cantonese). Check with your local NRA, as they usually have them in these languages. And with that, I shall leave the rest of this discussion to everyone else, as I have made my viewpoint clear and do not wish to subject you all to my rantings about our government.

[phatch]

Why the HACCP is bad:

The only reason it is bad is it is a government mandate.

• It has nothing to do with the market.
• The people affected have no say in the issue
• The customers who pay for the implementation of HACCP have no say in the issue
• The government can't be sued if their program is inadequate or flawed. Only the restaurant or processor that is required to follow it
• There is no competition to create reasonable quality

It is estimated that 1/4 of the US citizens gets sick from food illness every year. About 5000 of them die. Those numbers are estimates because the CDC guesses that food illnesses are under reported. And they are, but how do you guess how much?
The extent of the problem really isn't known accurately. Worse, they make no differentiation between food served at home and among friends from food prepared professionally.

And the law doesn't affect private preparation, likely the greatest source of illness.

This is why I support private groups establishing standards. These standards would have competition. The great value of competition is that it is the customer who decides what is the best value for the risk. And there will always be risk. Standards merely reflect the level of risk present. Customers can choose standards they feel from their education is proper for their behavior and budget. Face it Government mandated HACCP merely forces less wealthy people to eat poorer and perhaps even illegal and riskier food.

Fudging the standard becomes a consumer issue. Consumers can pick a standard that with the level of inspection and verification they are comfortable with. And they'll pay for it.

Private standards are adaptable. They can change quickly to react to new hazards or eliminate obsolete issues. The government has no such ability or incentive. It seeks ever greater power and has no checks on its growth. It is a monopoly.

There is no choice under HACCP. As an example, assume a chlorinated water rinse is required for all foods. If you object to that for religious or ethical reasons, where do you turn? For those personal reasons, that risk is acceptable to you. Shouldn't you have that choice as a producer, a supplier, a cook, or a consumer? Competing private standards allows all types of wishes to be met in the market at the risks acceptable to the customer.

As a customer, when you go shopping or out to a restaurant, you choose food and meals certified to meet the standards you choose.

Lastly, consider laws and standards. The AMA was originally a private group certifying doctors credentials. Their word is now law and only what they say can be practiced as medicine. In other words, only when they say so are knowledge and technique medically proper. So chiropracty, homeopathy and such are not medicine, because the AMA can't control them. Did you know that the AMA sets the number of doctor candidates at the various schools? Do you want the HACCP setting the number of allowable new chefs? Creating standards groups with the force of law forces monopoly behavior only in the interest of the standards groups.

Producers and Customers must be allowed to choose the standards they prefer, for whatever reason.

Phil

[kuan]

I guess Phil takes up where Pete leaves off Guys, for one, HACCP is a set of guidelines which allows local government to set up guidelines. If understood correctly, HACCP is just a model which we can adapt to the restaurant industry.

While fair competition will help raise standards, I'd like to the emphasis to be more on fair rather than competition. I'd also like the emphasis to be on honesty. Face it, everyone acts in their own interests. I do, you do, Darden, McDonald's, General Electric, and Enron do as well. Do we really want industry giants who contribute millions and millions of dollars in campaign money each year to determine what's safe for us? What if McDonald's succesfully lobbies, in the interest of eradicating salmonella, to mandate 24hr monitoring of each and every chicken's vital signs and to destroy the whole farm if one case of salmonella is reported? KFC would have to figure out a way to make fake chicken out of soy protein!

I'm actually with Pete and Phil on this one, but my reasons may be different. It is already difficult enough for the small restaurant these days. Mom and Pop joints which used to rely on a fresh supply of produce are being forced to make huge capital investments which do not fit their business model or lifestyle. The cost of a walk-in cooler and NSF certified reach-in will run you close to $20,000 these days. Note NSF certification, another bogus organization just like the AMA. Not to mention the added costs associated with paying a local health inspector and an office with a secretary. This makes it almost impossible to have a restaurant in a town of 300 people.

We can practice HACCP without stainless steel NSF certified equipment or color coordinated cutting boards, and without the government breathing down our backs. All it takes is a little common sense and a good amount of honesty. it's hard to cheat an honest person.

Kuan

[Suzanne]

Kuan makes some good points. The safety principles of HACCP are what we have to apply, not any specific rules on equipment. One of the statements Mrs. Blaskovic made in the NYC Food Handler course was that NO ONE is telling you what equipment you have to use -- just so long as you can store foods at the proper temperatures, heat them properly, and cool them properly. Maybe other jurisdictions tell you that you have to have NSF-certified equipment, but here we do not. Of course, that might be better made and more reliable, but it is NOT required.

BTW: if anyone out there takes the NYC DoH course, I hope you get Mrs. Blaskovic as your instructor. She actually made the course fun!

[kuan]

Speing of NSF certification, you know those wood handled Dexter Russell knives which seem to come with most kitchens? One time the health inspector came in and said we couldn't use them. Wood was unsanitary and could not be used in a commercial kitchen. What a bunch of hogwash. We also had two kitchenaids which couldn't be used because they weren't the "commercial" kind. Let's see, what else? OH yeah, my leatherman tool. She actually asked me if I used my leatherman tool in the kitchen.

Heh

Kuan

[kokopuffs]

Can someone pls elaborate on NSF. Some of my aluminum utensils have NSF stamped on them, others don't. What does all of this mean?

[kuan]

National Sanitary Foundation.

www.nsf.org

Kuan

[Pete]

Kuan,
I thought it was the National Safety Foundation

[kokopuffs]

It's National Sanitation Foundation.

http://www.nsf.org/info/NSFhistory.html

[chefjohnpaul]

I think HACCP is great, but part of it is just great on paper. Some of what is outlined is so impractical that you would need double the staff just to implement. I believe working in the spirit of HACCP and having every cook accountable by educating them in proper food handling.

Some things almost seem written to cover the FDA's back side, where everything is overcooked and everyone is treated as though they have a compromised immune system.

I mean the one case of botulism from reusing a baked potato was a case of such gross mishandling that the cooked should've been fired on the spot, but now the 'book' says don't reuse baked potatoes because of a botulism potential. No, there is no threat if food is not mistreated.

Raw egg mayos---pretty safe, but not acording to HACCP. But in reality it is. It is so very complex to regulate everything and have common sense go out the window, yet this is a huge industry that has to have standards. Complex, very complex.

Where I work it is just recently implemented, unfortunately we are dumping food that is perfectly fine. Not freezing certain items that can be frozen because a manual says so, and taking temp readings of salsa and french fries. It is starting to bug me, but again perhaps a strictor standard is better than no standard.

I have a headache now, see what Y'all have done!?!?!?

[Bart]

Pete

I was under the impression that HACCP was already enforced in teh USA. Ireland has had it in place for the past eight years and once it is in the regulations seem to get more and more. We at the moment have to ensure full tracability farm to fork .So if a customer comes back with a potential case of food poisoning we are able to trace that particualr product back to the original delivery and batch number.

Even more annoying is that alll these records have to be kept for at least three years . The last place I was a head chef in there were thirteen chefs and one person was in control of the HACCP system for the day. trust me , feeding four thousand people a day Alla- carte is simple when you are left to do the HACCp for one day. It was definately the hardest job in the kitchen. It was impossible for me to do or the kitchen would fall to pieces so I had to hand it off to an additional member of staff to look after. This naturally effects your labour cost and so effects the bosses profits, But in the end the customer looses, He is the one that has to pay more for the end product.