Hotel Cooks

[lynne]

Welcome to Cheftalk Labridge!

Having been able to come in to a new kitchen and design menus etc, straight out of school and coming in to this discussion as a B&B owner, I think you can consider a new culinary grad with work experience that wants the opportunities you are able to give them.

You DO need to make sure that both THEY and you have a decent background in foodcost management which is something that a lot of new grads just don't have a good enough grip on and can get a little out of control on, especially in a new "unstructured" environment -- and you see it happen again and again in country inns.

PM me if you'd like, I won't bore everyone with details, there are some other sources of info out there, several in your area. I've got several friends out in the NC area in both the culinary and the B&B/Innkeeping fields - not necessarily both that might know of some good areas to recruit from if you would like as well.

Good Luck!

[W.DeBord]

BigHat beat me to my response! Labridge, what you describe is a dream job for many chefs!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll let someone far wiser then I guide you. But I want to add my two cents, briefly.

Look past resumes, look past experience. Judge the person. Give them honest critiques and see how they respond.

P.S. I've met alot of people that can't manage their personal finances (and time management) regardless of age, experience or career. Again, judge the whole person, find out who they are........not only where they've been.

[fodigger]

Wow, what a great topic. with some interesting side bars I might add.
First off I totally agree w/ Kuan about the generalization of hotel workers. The main problem w/ your hotel was that the Chef didn't care. That happens in restaurants too. I work at least 1 breakfast shift a month to see how things are going plus I eat there 6 days a week. My experiance has been that there are very creative chefs in hotels as well as in hotel. Being creative alone doesn't work in this job the need many other skills. Alot of restaurants w/ creative chefs seem to go by the wayside, because they get so caught up in being creative, that they forget about the details that keep the doors open. While creativity is fun(we all need to play from time to time) Consistantcy is much better. We have a steak house in our area called Jockos. No atmosphere, no creativity, nothingt but a great steak. I've had 150 steaks from there and not one was cooked wrong or not trimmed properly. They probably only have 20 - 25 items on their menu but they do they all great. They done that way for the last 100 yrs.

On the B and B question: I run credit checks. If they can't run their personal finances how can I expect they will run mine properly. I would also go to where they work taste their food several times. I also use a paid try out system. I give them a mystery basket and five hours to write, cost and prepare a 4 course menu. They have one of our prep cooks to help if needed. You find out alot w/ a test like that.
Good luck in your adventure.

[labridge]

I love the idea of the paid tryout, and would not have thought of it myself. Thank you! Please explain about the mystery basket? I was thinking of showing them the menus from what we see as our biggest 3 competitors and letting them devise a menu from that, but your way seems alot better in trying out both their creativity and flexibility (since everyday presents unknown challenges, it would be better to see how they can adapt "on the fly")

We do plan on doing a credit/background check for the reasons stated. One thing that hasn't been decided is whether to require them to make any type of upfront investment or just work towards ownership. Any advise is appreciated.

[fodigger]

For the Mystery basket we give them a couple of items that are more delicate that are a little harder to cook and require some added skill level. We have them cook in our banquet kitchen that supplies them w/ a stocked pantry and a well designed herb garden if they want fresh herbs. There are no limits placed on them other than time. They make the meal for 6 people and we have our wait staff serve it the canidate must be able to communicate the menu to the staff so that they can do the same to us.

For example our last one chose the seafood basket

His menu was very simple but nice he made
Mixed baby green salad w/a sauvignon blanc dressing
a forest mushroom bisque w/just a hint of sherry
Scallop stuffed petrale sole/w buerre blanc
summer fruit crisp w/ cinn. flavored cream
We pay them anywhere from $100 - $200
depending on the job the are trying out for.


On the ownership thing that open a whole new set of problems. I myself would opt for the earning of ownership thing. What if the person is a jerk? A drunk or a host of other potential problems. Talk w/ your lawyer he should be able to draw up some sort of ownership agreement for you that requires a vestment period.
You and your partner are going to alot of expense to create this business so protect your self. Make sure to create an exit strategy so that if the time comes to part ways you don't have to drain the business to do it. I have found it best and cheaper in the long run to make sure that all my i's and t's are done properly the first time.
If you have any questions I be happy to help if possible. Good luck Again. Mike

[culinarian247]

If you wanna learn it's up to you to find the best to learn from. I learn from hotel cooks as well as restaurant cooks. I don't believe one is better than the other.

[Peachcreek]

I have learned from hotel cooks, private club cooks, restaurant cooks, fast-food cooks, guest ranch cooks, bistro cooks, greasy spoon cooks, catering cooks, burned out cooks, student cooks, Suzie Homemaker cooks, cyber cooks, part-time cooks, bad cooks, good cooks- you name it. And my ability to learn from any of them was dependent on my attitude, not the establishment. I have learned my MOST IMPORTANT LESSONS from all those people by jumping in, shutting up, keeping an open mind, and doing what I was paid to do. What people seem to forget is that the people who are the "lifers" in these places take their jobs seriously and are protective of their jobs, even into mediocrity. What did working in the hotels that I worked in do for me? It gave me experience in VOLUME! What they lack in finesse they make up for in repetition. How does that translate to what I do now? When I do a big catering of hundreds of people and they all eat at the same time.......

[Pete]

I think the problem here lies, first of all, in a gross generalization about hotels. Hotels are as varied as restaurants, from 4star to crap. Yes, Anneke you may have worked in a lousy one, but I think your experience is clouding how you see the hotel industry. Sure many hotels do a huge business, thus need to keep food simple and consistant, and profitable just like institutions. Especially, those hotels that do lots of convention business. The shear logistics of feeding 4000+ meals each service is maddening. But you have also seem to have forgotten that some of the greatest chefs are hotel chefs. In Europe, many of the Michelin 3-star restaurants are part of hotels. In the US, chefs like Guenter Seeger (Ritz-Carlton in Atlanta) Sara Stegner (Ritz in Chicago), Gary Danko, Gray Kunz, and many others first made their names in hotel restaurants. These are chefs who run some of the highest caliber kitchens in the country, and many cooks wash out of their programs, not because they aren't learning anything, but because the kitchens are too intense, the food too difficult and demanding.

[DaveB]

Let us not forget that Escoffier performed his magic at the Savoy.

[chrose]

Originally posted by Pete
I think the problem here lies, first of all, in a gross generalization about hotels. Especially, those hotels that do lots of convention business. The shear logistics of feeding 4000+ meals each service is maddening. These are chefs who run some of the highest caliber kitchens in the country, and many cooks wash out of their programs, not because they aren't learning anything, but because the kitchens are too intense, the food too difficult and demanding.

I edited the quote for brevity. After reading this post I reread my first post and will amend mine to read more like this one.
Pete is right on the money, including what I had said as well. I've worked in no business Ramada Inns to the Grand Hotel and Mayflower Hotels in Washington, D.C. and it was some of the toughest work I have ever done. The most demanding chef I ever worked for was Agostino Buggio at the Mayflower. An absolute dictator in the kitchen and it wasn't until a while later that I realized how much I had actually learned from him. Add to that what Peach said about learning from EVERYONE which I always tried to do. You may find a cook who is absolutely wretched at everything he touchs but has an uncanny touch with an omelet and so you learn that from him and disregard the rest. So you can learn something from everyone!

[Anneke]

I'm sticking to my guns here folks. I never made blanket statements about hotels and I acknowledged that there are definite advantages. I go to work every day with a positive attitude, ready to learn and work hard. I wish I could say that I exaggerated my descriptions and experiences. But the fact that my co-workers and collegues from other hotels seem to have shared similar experiences leads me to believe that I'm clearly not alone in feeling this way. We're adults here. Sometimes "having the right attitude" doesn't cut it, and you have to know when there's a problem, and just how much of it is within your control.

You guys will not guilt me into retracting my comment!!

[chef1x]

Score one for the Non-Retractors! yea!

I have definitely seen a lot of what you're talking about, even to an almost identical omelette maker (he's probably still there; they wanted me to leave after I suggested taking most of the 100 omelette options off the menu 'cause it was no longer the 70's!).

When I first came to NYC, I purposely AVOIDED hotels for that reason, besides the fact there is so much more out there. My last hotel gig ended when the ownership wouldn't budge on an updated menu after hiring me to revamp it. The staff there was union, and had been there an average of 19 years! with the knife and sanitation skills of newbies. I had no qualms about working on them, but the owner....what can ya do?

NOW, I'm looking at hotel jobs because they offer "stability" and all the reasons already mentioned.

BUT!!

I don't think there is a huge difference......., there are LOTS of restaurants with the same limitations, drawbacks, lack of creativity, motivation to teach others, etc. Lots and lots of BADD restaurants. I think it is a generalization that is widely accepted but not necessarily true and my advice to anyone who is in the position of not learning in a hotel kitchen is to FIND ANOTHER!

[Pete]

hotels appeal to those who NEED jobs (as opposed to those who cook by choice)

they are not emotionally invested in their work the way a more passionate restaurant chef is.

you probably won't get much of a clue about quality from your collegues

but when it comes to quality, good taste, and a judicious use of your own creativity, you are on your own.

I never made blanket statements about hotels

Anneke, these are all your own quotes. I think the first four rebutt the last one. I am sorry that there is a lack of good hotels in your area, but these statements make all hotels seem as if they are all sub-par and that is just not true. Check out some of the chefs I mentioned earlier if you are not familar with them. Check out what is going on in the Ritzs, Four Seasons, Hiltons, Hotel Ws around the country. These are not shabby establishments. Sure many hotels are not known for their cutting edge cuisine but that is because they have such a large client base that it makes serving that food unprofitable, but that doesn't mean that there aren't good things happening at hotels. I can continue naming great hotels, that serve great food, but I think I have made my point.

Finally, I can name a bunch of restaurants were your quotes hold true. Sure there are hotels that are crap (as I said in my previous post), but there are many restaurants that suffer the same problems. To make such statements I think is really unfair to the hotel industry.

[Anneke]

Since we're quoting out of context:

As in everything, there are many exceptions to what I have written here; I applaud and respect such exceptions immensely...

I've expressed my views based upon my own experience.

Look, I'm glad you've all had such great experiences in hotel. Obviously, it was good for you. It wasn't good for me, and the dozens of collegues who left hotels and now thrive in other environmnents. I can only share with you what my experience has been and I was very clear about that. Please don't overestimate the one little opinion I've shared here. It's an OPINION. I'm allowed to disagree, no?

[chefboy2160]

I worked in hotel casinos for 6 years and man did I learn a lot .We used to run about 12,000 through the buffet daily . 1,200 a shift through the 200 seat 24 hour coffee shop and anywhere from 600 to 1000 through the steak house . Not to mention we had an employee cafeteria which gave a free meal to every employee each shift . This was about 2300 meals daily . We used to cook off about 80 primes a night with the weekends sometimes going over 100 ( we sold a pound cut for $6.95 ) I used to sell Steak and Lobster for $6.95 in the coffee shop . This item alone was over 40% of the coffee shops P.M. sales .
Now talk about attitudes and personalities well all I can say is that I was the restraunt chef for the coffee shop and I set the pace and the mood for the crew . We who do this for a living tend to be very strong personalities , I know I am and I know I like to have a good work envirement and since I am the chef , well thats just how its going to be ,or else we might need to be having one of them inside the walkin talks .
OK Just my 2 cents , Clear skies , Doug................