Hotel Cooks

[cookinscool]

Anneke said this quote in a different thread. Please explain it to me.

In my experience, hotel cooks are less forthcoming when it comes to passing down their knowledge and experience. I won't get into the reasons for this because that's a whole other ball of wax, but there's an expression that restaurants cooks use a lot: you go to a hotel to die. (there are some exceptions I'm sure!!!)

Ron

[chrose]

Ron,
See my last post in the other thread as a partial explanation. Minorities hold a large portions of the jobs in hotels. Most of them untrained. They are hired because in many cases they have a better work ethic and are more loyal than the more shall we say "priviledged" people that come and go. But that too is another thread.
I'm not sure what Anneke meant by that but most hotels are nothing exceptional and general hotel cooking is one step above institutional. There are a lot of Chefs who spend entire careers there live and die there. Stand alone restaurants are more cutting edge in the culinary world and live a precarious existance to the vagaries and whims of the general public. When a Chef tires of that tightrope many will retire to a hotel that is very predictable and safe.
Of course there are generalizations in my answer and it won't be a tight fit for everyone, but will hopefully give you a partial view of hotel life.

[Anneke]

Wow... What he said!

Ron, hotels appeal to people who NEED a job (as opposed to those who are cooks by choice), a predictable earning pattern, benefits and a forty hour week. This is what seems to motivate a large percentage of such cooks. It does not foster an ideal learning environment, but it's great for honing your skills: lots of repetitive work. There's no advantage to them in teaching you as they are not emotionally invested in their work the way a more passionate restaurant chef is. Therefore, you are your own best teacher and your level of disipline will determine - to an extent - what you get out of that experience.

Other advantages to working in hotel: you get exposure to banquets and to breakfasts. Most high end restaurants don't offer you the opportunity to perfect egg cookery. Working in banquets introduces you to large quantity cooking where speed and timing are essential skills to develop.

However, as I said earlier, you probably won't get much of a clue about quality from your collegues. The last hotel I worked for had a breakfast cook who had done the same job for 11 years. Everyone did it his way because he was the senior cook, but all the guests hated his omelettes. He would set them under the salamander; they were tough and rubbery, brown on the outside and often had black bits on it from pans that he reutilised without washing. No one questioned him until finally a scathing article came out about it, and I'm sure he still hasn't changed his ways.

So, maybe the fact that this cook was not very big on educating the apprentices was a godsend in disguise, come to think of it.

My point being, you'll pick up speed and basic skill in a hotel, but when it comes to quality, good taste, and a judicious use of your own creativity, you are on your own.

I want to make it clear that these comments are based on my own experience and on that of many cooks that I have kept in touch with over the years. As in everything, there are many exceptions to what I have written here; I applaud and respect such exceptions immensely...

[pjm333]

cooking school
There are pros and cons to both restaurants & hotels but i think there is some truth about "hotel cooks". I work in a hotel in NYC and there are about 80 cooks in the kitchen and not many if anyone there is creative. They come in and do there 7 hrs and go and when they are told to try or do something new they start to pout !! Im 36 and im the youngest one in my department if not the kitchen and the only one in my department "pastry" who ever does new ideas. Hotels do offer security which isnt easy to find in restaurants..but i think you might find more motivated people in restaurants, creativity wise..

pat

[kuan]

So, the reason you don't learn in a hotel is someone else's fault? Please gimme a break. If you don't like working in a hotel, don't blame it on other cooks. Take some responsibility for yourself. If you've convinced yourself that you won't have fun or learn anything then you've already screwed yourself. You guys need to stop stereotyping people and blaming them for your misfortune. It might do you some good.

Kuan

[kuan]

Originally posted by pjm333
but i think you might find more motivated people in restaurants, creativity wise..

That's absolutely untrue. Minute changes can make a significant impact in a large hotel and this may bring significant positive results. But the downside is that the negatives may be just as bad.

Creativity is not just about the food and about different ways to use old ingredients. There are as many ways to be creative as there are types of learning styles. Just because you don't see something "creative" on your plate doesn't mean the kitchen didin't have to devise a creative way to put the product on the menu.

Kuan

[Anneke]

Originally posted by kuan
So, the reason you don't learn in a hotel is someone else's fault?

No Kuan. In my case it was my own fault.

It was my fault for willingly staying in a place where I knew cooks were untrained and consistently used the wrong techniques. It was my fault for staying in a place where all my initiatives were turned down for fear of rocking the boat, where all my simplest questions remained unanswered because the people whom I was supposed to copy and learn from didn't know the answers, all the meanwhile they were recieving government subsidies for calling me an apprentice.

So, yes, it was my fault and being responsible for my own learning, I did something about it.

I left.

Kuan, this is not a question of stereotyping people; some systems just breed certain attitudes. I think it's healthy to bring them to light and have an open discussion about it.

[pjm333]

Kuan
Sorry if i upset you...but just stating what I see where i work,Every where is different!! I didnt say that you "dont learn" in a hotel ..like i said in my original post, I creat alot and I do take advantage of what the hotel offers me"space,ingredients,equipment,etc" Its up to the person to learn, not up to his/her job.. Sorry for the misunderstanding...

pat

[kuan]

Originally posted by Anneke


It was my fault for willingly staying in a place where I knew cooks were untrained and consistently used the wrong techniques. It was my fault for staying in a place where all my initiatives were turned down for fear of rocking the boat, where all my simplest questions remained unanswered because the people whom I was supposed to copy and learn from didn't know the answers, all the meanwhile they were recieving government subsidies for calling me an apprentice.

So they failed to meet your expectations. It doesn't justify placing hotel cooks on a different rung as if they're not worthy of being cooks.

Sometimes people are just not the right fit for the job. If the work culture doesn't seem right for the person it's extremely difficult to thrive. It's not them, or me, or the establishment.

Kuan

[Anneke]

Kuan, if you re-read my post, you'll see that I never said they aren't worthy of being cooks. They tend not to be very good teachers, that's all. And that's ok because it's not in their job description.

But they do not compare to professionals like yourself or so many others here on Cheftalk who do invest in education, both for themselves and for apprentices, and for the general public. I did specify, this is strictly based on my own experience. You apparently know hotels where this is not the case. Please list them here; this could help aspiring culinarians who are trying to get the best work education possible.

You write: "If the work culture doesn't seem right for the person it's extremely difficult to thrive. It's not them, or me, or the establishment. "

So what is it then?

I've expressed my views based upon my own experience. Since you vehemently disagree, I would like to know specifically what experience you have had to justify your view?

[Anneke]

Just a side note: I don't wish to be adversarial about this. Me anglish not so good write now so it might come across that way.

I do think this is a very relevent and intresting topic that has not received much coverage on CT so I do want to keep this as constructive as possible.

I'd love to get some input from people who have or are working in hotel.

[kuan]

Anneke,

I'm not going to give you a list of what's good and what's not. First of all it's pointless unless you can verify it yourself, which you can't because of the point I'm about to make. Second and even more pointless is that what's good for me is not necessarily what's good for you. It's better if you experience it yourself.

The first and most simple way to see if you will be a good fit is by taking some time and talking to the staff of the establishment. See if they have the same values and priorities as you do. Does Willy the baker show you his baguettes first or pictures of his family? Next, use your eyes and your ears. Look around the place. If you walk into chef's office and see thirty seven gold medals then you know that one of his priorities is cooking competitions. Take a look at his cookbooks or recipes. Is that a bottle of kitchen bucket or balsamic vinegar on the prep counter? Give those red B's a whiff.

As I get older and more cynical, I tend to catch on to more and more subtle cues about foodservice establishments. I can tell by watching the line work if people aren't getting along, I can tell by the body language if they're disatisfied with their job or if something's bugging them. I can tell if there is electricity in the air or if there's a general lack of urgency in the kitchen. Sometimes I just misread things and find out later that I was wrong, but I just take it in stride.

I want to say a little bit about this thread in general. The subject of this thread sets things up in a way which makes us think that we're talking about cooks who work in hotels. Hence we tend to lose focus and talk about "them" and what "they" are like more than we talk about the real problem which is more often than not, ourselves and our relation to the rest of the world.

Kuan

[labridge]

I've been watching these boards for the past few weeks. My partner and I are in the process of building an 11 room Bed & Breakfast inn with a 45-60 seat restaurant. We are planning to open in July and so far have had very little success in finding a chef. I was hoping to see where you all thought a good place to advertise was, but after reading through various posts; I have a couple other questions.

There seems to be a thought that hotel cooking is just above institutional. Would most cooking professionals veiw a B&B/Inn the same way? We would like to offer a seasonal menu, prix fixe and have a lot of freedom to make changes. Adding in creative breakfasts, the ability to do catering for weddings and other events plus the possibilities of cooking classes should offer quite a professional challenge for someone seeking that. That's our thought, but maybe we've missed the mark?

We've been looking for someone that specifically had country inn experience as we feel that it will be different from a stand alone restaurant; between the variety of the menu to the fact that we don't expect to have a "full house" most nights and even during the busiest season we don't expect to turn the tables more than once in a night (maybe wrong, but we're trying to be conservative in our planning). We didn't think that would have as much appeal to a professional chef from a standard restaurant background, again ~ right or wrong? Does the chance for variety overcome the smaller volume?

In some of the various posts, there have been comments about hiring someone just out of cooking school over experienced that we might have to retrain our way. Understanding that someone having the right attitude is everything over any experience issues ~ would a recent grad have the ability to run a kitchen that diverse?

As you can tell from all this, we don't have the knowledge/skills to run a restaurant. Our goal is to find a managing partner and let them build the business. The only input we want to have in the overall direction is to maintain the quality and sanitation as it would positively or negatively affect the B&B and eventually the winery as they are all under the same umbrella. I have a business consulting background and can help the chef organize that end of things, but the kitchen would be his/hers to run. All that said, what type of package are we going to need to put together as far as compensation/ownership to attract the right person?

Thanks in advance for the assistance with all this

Scott

[thebighat]

Where do I send my resume?

[labridge]

If you're interested, you can email it to me or fax it 919-841-4472