[m brown]

there was no date on the commentary so i thought it was recent. thank you nanna for pointing that out.
we have however seen images of children with guns and candy dancing in the street celebrating the attack, these images the media has stated were from areas of the middle east torn with war. that is what i took the reference to mean.
please understand i have since edited out what i thought i had in the first place.

[ September 13, 2001: Message edited by: m brown ]

Hmmm . . . I wonder if the children were dancing more in response to the attack or the candy. Children only learn what they are taught, and I am concerned that we are in the midst of teaching our children that revenge equates to justice.

I'm a Quaker-turned-Buddhist - both groups have a deep foundation in peace and non-violence. I am also a really fromaged-off American; I'm not aware of having lost anyone in this devastation, but I can't take my eyes off a television that constantly is showing people in pain. I'm angry at the people who caused this, but I'm also concerned about us going in and bombing the **** out of a bunch of equally innocent people who are living in a country where they don't dare to voice their opinions.

Rather than picking at each other, we need to focus on what is patently obvious - the taking of ANY human life is wrong; I don't ever recall reading any caveats on this one.

Come on, everybody . . .

Peace and blessings,
Marye

[KyleW]

If someone had asked me on Monday, if I agreed with these "turn the other cheek" sentiments, I would have said yes. Having stood 10 blocks away and seen the World Trade Center towers in flames and seen people jumping from them, I no longer do.

How do you convince those with no regard for their own lives to care for the lives of others? Their is, in my mind, only one way to stop them.

Kyle, that is the really sad part - you can't convince these people of anything. The only way to eradicate the problem is to totally eradicate them. Of course, when you do that, you'll cheese somebody else off, and they'll try to wipe you out. If they fail, you'll turn around and punish them. When you do that, of course, they will . . . I guess you see where this goes.

I'm not "turning the other cheek." I know that if I do that, I'm just going to get slapped again. I don't know what the solution is. We've been killing people for killing us for killing them for centuries, and we still haven't resolved the problem. You can't beat someone into agreeing with you.

In the long run, aggression has been no more successful than pacifism.

Peace and blessings,
Marye

(WWMPD?)

[thebighat]

Suppose there is a whole spectrum of people in the Islamic nations, which appear to be the ones with some of the people most p.o.ed at the U.S., and on one end there are pious, sincere people who love and serve Allah, and on the other end are the nutcakes who do this kind of horror, and we start killing at that end of the spectrum, how in the world do we know how far up to go before stopping? Because I'm sad to say I think KyleW is right. The only way to stop someone who is not afraid to die as they try to hurt you, is to kill them. There was a guy on Boston news the other night, a professor from BU who made the point that we don't need these people to like us, or respect us, just fear us, so that they know that if they hurt us, the consequences will be severe. I really have no hope that this war can be won. We lost a friend, Herb Homer, on flight 175.

[KyleW]

Marye, in order to answer the question What would MP do, I need to know who MP is. My first guess was Mary Poppins

TBH, I am very sorry to hear about your friend.

This is a perfectly circular discussion. There is no right answer. As TBH points out, if you start at the lunatic fringe of the spectrum, at what point do you stop? But, as Marye points out, if you turn the other cheek you get slapped again.

In this case we have an individual, Osama Bin Laden, who has made it his mission to punish the United States for percieved wrongs. He is well financed, estimated net woth of $300MM, and very influential. He has been linked to the bombing of US embassies in Africa, the bombing of the USS Coles and now Tuesday's unspeakable horror. In my opinion he, and those who harbour him, must now be brought to justice. Hopefully Texas style justice.

[foodnfoto]

I am very sorry about the loss of your friend TBH. If only all those who practice Islam could stand in a straight line running from tolerant and truly observant of the Koran to, on the other end, fanatic, then we could know clearly which were a danger to us. The fact is, it's impossible.

I think at times like this it might be a good thing for all of us, and especially those who are chafing to start slinging bombs, to step back and consider why people in other parts of the world hate us so much. Be a little circumspect before rushing headlong into vengeance. Should we let our pain and suffering cloud our willingness to look inward at how our own zenophobia, ignorance and insensitivity to other cultures, and prejudice may have engendered these feelings in others?

I live just north of NYC and commute to work there everyday. I witnessed the entire horrific attack on the WTC from less than a mile away. My neighbor's son goes to a public elementary school not 1/2 a mile from my house called Kahlil Gibran Elementary School. Yesterday, some ignorant yahoos called in a bomb threat to the school threatening to "paint the streets with your Islamic children's blood" in retaliation for Tuesday's attack.
If the caller had bothered to inform himself a little, he would have known that the school was a PUBLIC school with a diverse student body, that Kahlil Gibran was a Lebanese Christian Maronite, and one who wrote the most beautiful poetry of love, tolerance and freedom of spirit. I've witnessed at my son's school, sidelong, suspicious looks at a Islamic mother who happens to wear a long dress and veil. These subsequent acts make me fear that those terrorists have succeeded beyond their imagining by making us turn upon ourselves, in our pain, suspicion and anger.

Let's comfort each other and wave our flags, not only to express our resilience, but also to remind us of the values and basic rights that our country is founded on-freedom of speech and religion.

TBH, I'm so sorry for your loss.

And, actually Kyle, WWMPD? would be "What Would Monty Python Do?" I know, I know . . . heaven forbid that I should try and introduce a little levity. I've had a number of personal tragedies in my life - certainly not on this scale, but enough to learn that sometimes you have to smile just to get some perspective.

Take care all,
Peace and blessings,
Marye

[Pete]

Who was it who once said "Living by the philosophy of an eye for an eye does nothing, but leave everyone blind"? (I have paraphrased this as I can't remember the exact quote) I wish I could feel this way, but I can't. I can't think of turning the other cheek. If we don't act soon and decisively, all sorts of other madman will think they can get away with attacks like this, and then how many more innocent people will die? I don't relish the thought of taking innocent lives in order to pursue these barbaric fiends, but we have no other choice than to take this to its final conclusion. I can't believe that with all of our vast technology and weaponry we can't (when acting decisively) eliminate a person like bin Laden or Hussian without taking too many innocents lives. This we should have done in the Gulf War, but we didn't take that final, decisive step. As a consequence, many innocent people have died and suffered due to the blockades imposed on Iraq. The average person in Iraq used to enjoy one of the highest standards of living of any non-western country, now their educational, medical, and social institutions are in ruins. Is that sparing innocent lives? If we had made that final push during the War and eliminated Hussian, innocent people would have died, but more than are suffering and dying now because of our nonactions? I don't think so. Is this to happen in Afganistan also? Will we blockade them and suround them with sanctions, causing the already poor to become even poorer? Or in the long run will we save lives and a standard of living, by decisively eliminating a clear threat to world peace? I know this is a difficult question to answer. Either decision brings about the death of innocent bystanders. I wish that there was another solution, but I do not see one.

In this tragedy, I have been uplifted by the outpouring of compassion, help and support that Americans and the whole world has shown to NYC. Story after story, of people driving halfway across the country, offering their services to those in need. Working nonstop for hours on end, in hopes of saving a life. I had almost begun to have a glimmer of hope for humanity until the new wave of newsreports started coming in. Those stories of bigots, racists, and rednecks using this tragedy as an excuse to, beat and batter Arab-Americans. To destroy their homes and businesses. Sometimes I really wonder if "civilized man" has a chance in ****, or if "he" is doomed to being moronic forever?

Thank you for listening to my tirad. I shall step off of my soapbox, and apologize to anyone that I might have offended. I came to the boards tonight with no intentions of even discussing the events of the past week, but I suddenly found myself no longer in the mood to discuss food, yet needing to say something. Speak my mind and unload. My deepest regrets to those families who lost someone close to them, and my best wishes to all of those still searching, hoping to pull surviors from the brink of tragedy.

[KyleW]

The foot should have been my first clue I am a devoted, lifelong fan. There is really no need to beat each other up. Someone else has already done a pretty good job of that

[Anneke]

Pete, those are all excellent points you are making. I think that we are misguided in thinking that the issue is as ambiguous as eye-for-eye or turn-the-other-cheek. Actually it's much more practical than that. It's a question of protecting ourselves against what would be the certain continuation of this brand of terrorism. My husband and I had dinner in a little pub tonight. Through the the drunken laughter of the birthday girl I could hear Larry King on CNN and see the gruesome images on the TV set. We talked about what the US should do, what they could and couldn't do etc. If we take the moral higher road, we are doomed. If we don't, we risk an escalation of terror. One thing that is certain however is that Joe-public doesn't know half the story. Countless attempts against Westerners have been successfully thwarted by US agencies who have an extensive network of information and all the experience that goes along with it. We can speculate all we want but ultimately, the government will make a decision based on more factors that we could (should) ever get our hands on. Whatever they decide, we will, as usual, be quick to judge. I hope in this time of great need and crisis, North Americans will be able to show a solid and united front in the face of evil and stick by the governing powers. One day I hope, we will understand the full story...

[W.DeBord]

Wow, I feel so humbled by so much wisdom written here by my freinds. I certainly don't know enough about the politics through out the world to make sense of all our actions through-out history.


I know that: My goverment has done many things I'm not aware of, nor were the generations before me. Their actions around the world don't always reflect my desires or persepective on each issue. I am but a small citizen and can't possibly know all that my goverment does everyday year in and year out. I have to assume that just like my parents they have done the best they could for me through out the years, even though they aren't perfect. But I realize they've accidentally made some mistakes along the way.

I also know that: In every country through-out the world they are billions of people who can say the say thing about their goverment and their knowledge.


Anger is a emotion that shouldn't be acted on, felt yes, but it's not what intelligent people should let rule them. Peace requires both sides to look clearly in the mirror and figure out how you can change your-self because: You don't have the power to change others. Acceptance isn't something you can beat into someone else, it's something you can create only with-in yourself and try to teach to others.

When conflicts arise between your children you try to get the the root of the conflict. You don't tell your child to go have a big fight with the kid and see how many friends you can get into the fight. Is that what you want to teach them, the bigger kid wins because he's bigger and or has more friends?

I don't ask anyone to ignore this big conflict! But remember for every action there is a re-action. I'd rather see caution and long range planning used because Cockroaches will always survive, but you can manage their numbers.

[cape chef]

Yoy were born together,and together you shall be forevermore.
You shall be together when the white wings of death scatter your days.
But let there be spaces in your togetherness,And let the winds of the heavens dance between you.
Love one another,but make not a bond of love:
Let itt rather be moving a moving sea between the shores of your souls.
Sing and dance together and be joyous,but let each one of you be alone,
Even as the strings of the lute are alone though they quiver with the same music.
Give your hearts,but not into each others keeping.
For only the hand of life can contain your hearts.
And stand together yet not to near together.
For the pillers of the temple stand apart,
And the oak tree and the cypress grow not in each others shadow.

Kahlil Gigran
"On marriage"
This was part of our wedding vows over 15 years ago.
cc

[momoreg]

I love that poem, cc.. Thanks for sharing it. Wonderful words to live by.

[cape chef]

Your welcome Momoreg,

And they are wonderful words to live by.

AAfter reading foodnfotos post about the school attended by a friends child named after Gibran,I took my framed version of the poam of my bedroom wall and copied it to this thread.fnf post shows a clear example of how when people do not know there history of events in our world they may hurt innocent people.
I feel for the children of that school and the children of our country.I only hope they did not see the writtings from those confused people.
Please to not "shoot first"and ask quistions later.
Do the best you can to assure the safty of our homeland.
God bless our children and gods speed.
cc