[Anneke]

Originally Posted by Ishbel

My children always ate out with us, whether that place be an upmarket michelin starred place or a greasy spoon.

Children are welcome everywhere in mainland Europe. Here in the UK they are often made to feel like lepers. I remember the god-awful 'children's room' in many cafes and pub dining rooms!

My children had impeccable manners, were expected to sit still for the duration of the meal. Exactly as they had to at home.

I'm with Bughut

What I've learned from this discussion and the "stupid children" (gah!) thread in the Professional Forum is that in North America, that's considered bad parenting. If you have well behaved kids these days, you're obviously abusing them.

[stellasmomma]

Originally Posted by Anneke

What I've learned from this discussion and the "stupid children" (gah!) thread in the Professional Forum is that in North America, that's considered bad parenting. If you have well behaved kids these days, you're obviously abusing them.

oh, for godssakes, that's not what i said. getting children to sit through a meal with their family is one thing. Making them sit hours after the meal has ended simply because they haven't eaten their brussel sprouts and d**n it, they're going to eat their brussel sprouts, isn't abuse- but it certainly isn't the most intelligent way to give them positive feelings about vegetables or food or family dinner time.

[jbd]

Originally Posted by Salliem

You can take your kids to a fine dining and expect them to act accordingly.

Agreed. Or you can take your kids to a fine dining place and demand the staff prepare the kid(s) something that is not on the menu, which is the point of the thread in the professional forum. It really is all about what parents expect of their kids.

[izbnso]

Bug hut,

I do indeed believe that children are capable of dining with their parents and enjoying the experience. I believe that children should be exposed to fine dining and encouraged to develop a broad palate, when it is appropriate. My responses are due to the extreme concepts I saw in the other threads.

Extreme concept #1:
Children have no place in fine dining; don’t even ask me to serve them.

Extreme concept #2:
Children are always capable of fine dining.

Extreme concept #3:
If children are picky, finicky or desire the dreaded breaded chicken tender it is only because they haven’t been properly educated by their parents.

Children should be a part of the fine dining world.

More than “sometimes” children are not ready for all fine dining.

Children do have different palates than adults due to stages of development, this in and of itself is not the only barometer of poor culinary education.

There are always two sides (or more) to every story and the truth is usually somewhere in the middle. And the old adage that even a virtue can be a vice is especially pertinent here.

I agree that it is unfair to generalize, which is why I began this thread. All three of the “extreme concepts” I mentioned are generalizations and add nothing to a good discussion of several issues that are very relevant. Generalizations often lead to “bomb throwing” and name calling, which then leads to everyone packing up their crayons and going home none the wiser, without resolution and generally feeling pretty cranky.

It sounds as if you wisely and appropriately chose a marvelous way to raise your children. Wish you had been my parent. In fact, would you adopt me and send me a plane ticket to Scotland? J I’ll do the dishes and sleep in the closet under the stairs.

While I joke and often refer to my children as uncivilized heathens, they are very well behaved in public. The worst public dining experiences we have due to their behavior usually center around toddlers yanking on the table cloth and knocking over drinks. No amount of good parenting is going to keep an 18 month old from occasionally knocking over a drink. We have been able to maintain our success record by not taking tired children into public settings.



To all:

A discussion on how to achieve a reasonable middle ground that can have far reaching implications is what I am looking to foster.

We are all, apparently, from industrialized English-speaking countries. Those in the UK, Canada and Down Under will not have identical cultural experiences in comparison to those of us in the US. However, some things are universal.

You would have to live with the Uni-bomber or under a rock as opposed to mainstream America to not have to fight the insidious marketing of food that is as tasty and nutritious as a cardboard box and is engineered to have you coming back for more. Would you care for some green beans with your high fructose corn syrup? To boot, in this country we are collectively obese while simultaneously malnourished; a wonder of the modern world.


Children are particularly susceptible to the pervasive influence of marketing. I saw an article on-line about a study that proved how marketing is affecting children’s perceptions. The kids were asked to “taste test” two “batches” of chicken nuggets. Both were from McDonalds. One was in McDonalds packaging and the other was in a plain bag. Guess what, the kids thought that one emblazoned with the golden arches actually tasted better.


I would venture to say that anyone who is here is already ahead of the game when it comes to their children’s palates (and from the looks of it, their children’s behavior as well). I also don’t consider it going out on a limb to say that you all sound as if you have paid as much attention to your children as you do to the food you prepare. Kudos.

So where are all these misbehaved, wailing brats that eschew delicious well prepared cuisine (and their adult counterparts) who are the focus of discussion coming from? Well, they’re not my kids, nor bug hut’s, stellasmomma’s or Oregon Yeti’s. Given the number of times that we have all encountered this phenomenon it is fairly obvious that, on the whole, we (in this forum) as parents and our children are the exceptions. The “rule” are those we are complaining about.

It is okay to advocate a vast array of causes significant to the food industry: locally grown food (to cut down on oil consumption), organic foods (the environment), and humane animal husbandry practices (ethical treatment of animals) etc. etc. I just see another culinary cause in appropriately educating the coming generations, in light of our current societal failings.

How many of you vocally support locally grown, organic, humane food stuffs? If everybody were aware that these were the best practices and the benefits of doing so were broad and far reaching would you need to be so vocal? Probably not, it would be the norm, not the exception. So we as professionals, as well as citizens of the world, discuss these issues and take individual and collective action.

What I want to know is: How do we instigate change via “early intervention” in every day restaurant business practices to educate the populace (starting with children, because it could be the most logical place to start) without losing the essence of fine dining? But also without further perpetuation of what I call “the cult of the child” and maybe even help defeat such cult.

The cult of the child is when any argument is won by crying “it’s for the children” then the follow up practices are just more overindulgent inappropriate policies that do more harm than good and rarely have anything to do with actually helping “the children”. Exposure, experience and expression in the extreme are exalted (loving the alliteration) to the point that children feel entitled to things that are in reality far beyond their capabilities to handle. And anyone that feels that children need boundaries in areas that aren’t “X” rated is oppressive, unenlightened and quite possibly evil.
Furthermore, pushing children beyond the realm of childhood so that they can be put on display as “advanced” and engage in activities that are more like grisly parlor tricks than the accomplishments of a healthy child is lauded.

By the way, I blame “the cult” for producing the children and adults that irk me (and it seems some of you as well) so very much.

Is there an answer?

[jbd]

Originally Posted by izbnso

Is there an answer?

From my somewhat limited experience with other societies the answer would appear to be---less affluence.

From the little experience I have with nomadic subsistence living people, I noticed and confirmed via conversation that children under the age of 5 are often considered to be somewhat of a liability. As such, they are not cherished, idolized, worshipped and adored at all costs like children in affluent societies. Mortality rates are fairly high and the families/societies just can't become unduly emotionally attached. Beyond the age of 5 and there is hope the child will survive and thrive and more importantly become a part of the labor force of the society i.e. the child now has some semblance of value to the group. Its a far different perspective than we have in the United States.

[Ishbel]

izbno
I have bought nothing but organic meats for more years than I care to recall (at least 20!) - I also try to buy/eat, fresh veggies, in season. But, as Bughut will confirm, in Scotland that would mean only eating root veggies and some brassicas for a major part of the year - it would also mean not eating citrus fruits or bananas, so I'm not so paranoid about organic veggies

My children, brought up in Scotland, but we lived around the globe for much of their childhood, were always taught good table manners. In many countries where we lived or even holidayed, children were welcomed and even encouraged. This was not true of the UK (as a whole, with a few exceptions) - and frankly, looking at the manners of some of the munchkins, and their parents' apparent inability to ensure a modicum of good behaviour, I can't say I could blame some of the establishments.

I brought my children up with the same dining rules as we had when I was a girl. Anything in serving dishes on the table was there for anyone to eat. BUT, once it was taken from the dish to your plate - you 'owned' it and were expected to eat it. I never made an issue of it, they just KNEW the rule!

BTW - I never sat them down until they ate it, just didn't allow a pudding or a treat.

[bughut]

Izbnoso,
I take your well made point, and I happily get down off my soap box.

There are no spiders under the stairs, only cosy coats and you'll be very welcome. - Cant send the fare, but i hear there are many ways of working your passage...
All the best