[singer4660]

Originally Posted by Koukouvagia

I hear too much complaining about hand dexterity and independence. I only hear these excuses from students who don't want to put in the work required to learn an instrument past a certain level. What, you think pro musicians are just born with the ability to make each hand do something different than the other? Not a chance. Sorry, just calling 'em like I see 'em.

While I would agree that professionals work really hard to get where they are, a certain amount of inate talent is required to be successful. This is true of any art from cooking to theater to music. Personally, I wasn't using the "right hand left hand" thing as an excuse, simply a realization that my brain doesn't work that way and this would make it very hard for me to ever be really good on an instrument that requires that specific ability. I took 9 years of piano lessons, practiced every day, and never got to be more than mediocre. I took 2 years of voice lessons and was hired professionally by the local regional opera. Big surprise, my inate talent is in my voice not my hands. What's interesting about the story (IMHO) is that it took so long for me to figure it out.

[Koukouvagia]

Originally Posted by singer4660

While I would agree that professionals work really hard to get where they are, a certain amount of inate talent is required to be successful. This is true of any art from cooking to theater to music. Personally, I wasn't using the "right hand left hand" thing as an excuse, simply a realization that my brain doesn't work that way and this would make it very hard for me to ever be really good on an instrument that requires that specific ability. I took 9 years of piano lessons, practiced every day, and never got to be more than mediocre. I took 2 years of voice lessons and was hired professionally by the local regional opera. Big surprise, my inate talent is in my voice not my hands. What's interesting about the story (IMHO) is that it took so long for me to figure it out.

I wasn't trying to be accusatory, sorry if it came across like that. What I'm trying to stress is the opposite of what you'e saying... I don't believe that inate talent is as useful as you may think. I teach plenty of students that have little talent but put in a great effort and get to be very good. I also have students that have more talent in their pinky than all my other students combined but they're lazy as all heck and never amount to anything. Talent can be a motivation but it won't carry you to high ranks alone.

I started learning violin when I was 14. Most great violinist start learning right around the same time they start walking so I was a beginner amongst advanced students. By the end of high school a lot of those students dropped out of conservatory where as me... I was ready for more. I had a certain amount of talent but not nearly as much as other musicians i was and still am surrounded by. It was hard beyond hard and I spent hours locked up in a practice room (still do, that never ends).

[deltadoc]

Interesting about talent vs. hard work.

After playing slide delta blues for about 1 year, I played for a real honest-to-goodness real bluesman. When I got done, he exclaimed, "Well, sxxt man, I've been playin' blues for 55 years and I can't even play like that!".

And he promptly got up and walked off, and didn't speak to me again during the 3-day blues festival!

doc

[shelta]

I play a little guitar and keyboard, but mainly produce records and have some credits.

[American_Suisse]

Like most kids from my generation, I suffered thru piano lessons. From there organ followed. Then came trumpet and coronet, mellowphone, sousaphone, and tuba. I've never been able to play any stringed instruments very well. Mary Had A Little Lamb is about the only song I can play on violin but it sounds like I'm playing the lamb instead of a violin. My big desire now is learning to play French horn.

[chefhow]

Originally Posted by Koukouvagia

I hear too much complaining about hand dexterity and independence. I only hear these excuses from students who don't want to put in the work required to learn an instrument past a certain level. What, you think pro musicians are just born with the ability to make each hand do something different than the other? Not a chance. Sorry, just calling 'em like I see 'em.

I lived in a home with a professional(my father), a teacher(my mother), a concert guitar player(my aunt) and a YOUNGER brother who could play just about any string instrument or a piano without any lessons. I practiced constantly but never could get past my lack of ability and the confusion happening within my hands. I just wasnt born to play. I realize the work you have to put in and would never take it away from anyone but its not very fair of you to "call em like you see em" when you werent there.

[foodpump]

Nope.

No one in my Dad's family every played anything, no one except one Aunt in Mom's family (12 kids) played either. Needless to say no one in my family can either. My Mom could sing, quite well, sang in the Parish choir for about 20 years.

Grades 1-7 there were no musical instruments--other than cymbols or triangles to accompany "Choral singing" but that was about it. Only 1 (one) teacher knew how to play piano....

Grade 8 was a nightmare--highschool and the expectations that I could at lest play some kind of scales or know what those funny litle squiggly black thigs were. Lets just say I bombed....

Can't/won't even sing in the shower.......,

[Greg]

I play guitar a little, used to be okay but haven't picked it up in a long time. My brother is the real musician in the family: guitar, bass, drums, keyboards and accordion. He was lead guitarist in a band recording on Capitol in the late 80s. Played opening gigs for REM, The Dream Syndicate, Green on Red, Steve Earle, The Red Hot Chili Peppers, Camper Van Beethoven, The Meat Puppets and The Replacements. I have bad hearing now from going to his shows, though.

[Koukouvagia]

Originally Posted by chefhow

I lived in a home with a professional(my father), a teacher(my mother), a concert guitar player(my aunt) and a YOUNGER brother who could play just about any string instrument or a piano without any lessons. I practiced constantly but never could get past my lack of ability and the confusion happening within my hands. I just wasnt born to play. I realize the work you have to put in and would never take it away from anyone but its not very fair of you to "call em like you see em" when you werent there.

Sure it's fair, we've all had our set backs. It must be frustrating to be part of a musical family and not measure up but I had the opposite experience. My parents don't even play the radio and were against musical training... I wasn't allowed to practice when they were in the house so I had to get up extra early to go to school and get practice time. I had to come up with all sorts of tricks to continue music and I got through it, mediocre talent and all. I may not have been where you were but trust me, I was in the trenches. And the "excuses" I was refering to was from my students who find a million reasons not to put in work, it wasn't about you directly although your post conjured up the same "I don't have what it takes" logic I hear from kids who need a nudge.

[American_Suisse]

Originally Posted by Koukouvagia

Sure it's fair...it wasn't about you directly although your post conjured up the same "I don't have what it takes" logic I hear from kids who need a nudge.

No, it isn't fair. Some people have a natural gift with music and others don't. Saying that someone needs a nudge would be like me saying sure, you can sing in the same range as Caruso, Domingo, Carreras, or Pavarotti if you just practice enough...and you're a bass. It isn't going to happen no matter how hard you try. My brother took piano lessons from the same teacher as me. My sisters also took lessons from the same man. My brother was never able to play very well at all even when he put in twice the time practicing compared to the rest of us. I have one sister that blows us all away on the piano. I'll never be able to play as she does but she isn't able to play a trumpet like I do either. As nice as it would be to be able to compose like Beethoven, Schubert, or Glinka it isn't going to happen no matter how hard I try.
Rather than put someone down for not having a skill a person thinks they should have, encouragement to do the best that person is able to do will accomplish a great deal more over discouragement.

[Koukouvagia]

Originally Posted by American_Suisse

No, it isn't fair. Some people have a natural gift with music and others don't. Saying that someone needs a nudge would be like me saying sure, you can sing in the same range as Caruso, Domingo, Carreras, or Pavarotti if you just practice enough...and you're a bass. It isn't going to happen no matter how hard you try. My brother took piano lessons from the same teacher as me. My sisters also took lessons from the same man. My brother was never able to play very well at all even when he put in twice the time practicing compared to the rest of us. I have one sister that blows us all away on the piano. I'll never be able to play as she does but she isn't able to play a trumpet like I do either. As nice as it would be to be able to compose like Beethoven, Schubert, or Glinka it isn't going to happen no matter how hard I try.
Rather than put someone down for not having a skill a person thinks they should have, encouragement to do the best that person is able to do will accomplish a great deal more over discouragement.

What would you suggest I do as a music teacher? Tell them they can't overcome their limitations? Tell them they can't become a great violinist like Itzhak Perlman? There are a lot of "can't dos" and closed doors in the world of the arts, but they should never come from a teacher.

"Saying that someone needs a nudge would be like me saying sure, you can sing in the same range as Caruso, Domingo, Carreras, or Pavarotti if you just practice enough...and you're a bass." Not sure this makes sense, why would someone try to encourage a singer to be a tenor if they're a bass? This is most definitely not what I meant by a nudge.

All I know is that my job as a musician and teacher is to make music to the best of my ability. I look up to Jascha Heifetz and strive to be like him, but I'm never going to be like him... I can only be the best version of myself. It's my job as a teacher to get my students to think past their limitations, that's what teachers do. If your child was taking lessons with me you better believe I would try to get them to do the best work they were capable of. You would never hear me tell you "I'm sorry, your child has no talent and no capacity to learn this instrument." It'd be one thing for someone to say this to themselves, and a complete other thing for a teacher to say this to a student, agreed?

[OregonYeti]

People pick different things to put a lot of effort into, and there's nothing wrong with that either. I'm not going to try to be the world's best everything.

For me, music is fulfilling and fun, even though I'm not highly accomplished. I'm happy with that.

[chrose]

Originally Posted by OregonYeti

Heyyy, you got Satch as a friend, how cool

We're from the same 'hood'.... Actually so is Steve Vai. We were born in the same hospital only a few months apart. And that my friend is where the similarity ends!

[BryanJ]

chrose, i couldnt help but notice, but im as much of a gear nerd onstage as i am in the kitchen. what model p-bass is that. i see the p pickup in mid and the jazz pickup in bridge, so im thinking a special, but, when did they come with gold pickguards?

[American_Suisse]

Originally Posted by Koukouvagia

What would you suggest I do as a music teacher? Tell them they can't overcome their limitations? Tell them they can't become a great violinist like Itzhak Perlman?..."Saying that someone needs a nudge would be like me saying sure, you can sing in the same range as Caruso, Domingo, Carreras, or Pavarotti if you just practice enough...and you're a bass." Not sure this makes sense, why would someone try to encourage a singer to be a tenor if they're a bass? This is most definitely not what I meant by a nudge.

I don't think Perlman is all that great, prefering the likes of Oistrakh, Menuhin, or even Nesbitt but that's another opinion. The rest of the quote above does make sense based on the way you have posted on this subject, or at least the way it comes across to me.

Maybe it's the words and your phrasing that is causing me to misunderstand you. To me, you go from sounding like you're all for pushing people to overcome limitations then backpeddle on it. I'm all for people pushing themselves beyond limitations and have always encouraged my kids and grandchildren as well as people who work for me to do this. All I'm saying is that talent and natural ability as well as practice go way beyond any amount of time spent practicing by someone without the talent. Yes, some people waste the gifts they have for whatever reasons but no matter how hard someone may practice, no matter how many nudges they get, they'll never sound like anything other than a frog when they sing. Not that that's bad, I enjoyed the Bud Wise Er Frogs.