[kokopuffs]

This morning I went to bed at 3 a.m. and shortly thereafter I heard the sound of some kind of grating noise emanating near my front window. Then it stopped and a moment later the noise resumed. I reached for my Govt. 45, went thru the living room to investigate, and explored the area surrounding my apt and saw nothing out of the ordinary.

And this morning at breakfast, there it was. The screen covering my front window had been slashed by a sharp object and so it looks as if I foiled a burglary attempt last night.

Take notice all of you anti-gun folk. Had the burglar entered my apartment, he'd be dead by now as I have the right to defend myself. You got that, anti-gunners.

And oh yes,

Happy Thanksgiving.

TK

[KYHeirloomer]

Had the burglar entered my apartment, he'd be dead by now as I have the right to defend myself.

Mebbe so, Kokopuffs. And mebbe not, as both the precise circumstances and your local regs, determine that.

Most people, when self- or home-defense comes up, think "handgun." But a handgun is, in most cases, the worst choice for home defense.

The problem is, most people who buy a handgun do not take the time to become proficient with it. The think a gun, alone, is a deterrent. Not so. If you have not trained yourself to the point where it's use is automatic, then you may as well not have one.

More to the point, in a high-stress situation, the first thing you lose is your small motor control. The one thing you don't need to be doing is fumbling around with a safety. So on that level, a wheel gun actually makes more sense than an auto.

Finally, most people aren't looking to shoot anyone. If there's an intruder in the house they just want 'em gone. Once you start waving a large-bore handgun around you mostly don't have a choice. Most bottom feeders are well aware that even though you have a gun, you're probably not prepared---mentally or physically---to shoot. So the pistol, alone, does not serve as a deterrent.

For home defense, the best choice is a cheap pump shotgun (get one at the pawn shop, rather than the gun store). Cut the barrel down even with the magazine tube. Then put it under the bed in a combat-safe position.

The security system you've just created is, btw, illegal. So don't go using that shotgun to hunt quail.

Come circumstances like yours, you grab the piece and jack the round home. I guarantee even if it's the middle of the night, and a bottom feeder is where he doesn't belong, and even if he's never been near a shotgun before in his life, he will know what that sound is. And he's gone! And if not, a shotgun is such an intimidating weapon that the choice of shooting or not is yours to make.

Why is it so intimidating? Because, in a low-life's mind, there is a particular kind of reasoning. He knows, with a handgun, that you are not likely to squeeze the trigger, and that if you do, you'll more than likely miss. But like most people, he also believes, erroneously, that you can't miss with a shotgun at those ranges. So whatever he's doing, he'll stop and say sir.

Cautionary Warning! Anyone who chooses a firearm for self- or home-defense had better familiarize themselves with the legal concept called "in gravest extreme." That's what determines when lethal force is, or is not, justified. And do not depend on the cops or local police chief to fill you in on this. Most of them do not understand it, and will give you bad advice. Find somebody who truly understands it---a criminal lawyer, or home-defense consultant.

[kokopuffs]

I've put 30,000 rounds thru my 45, cast my own bullets and reload my own ammunition. Furthermore, I am POST certified and currently work in law enforcement and I KNOW the local laws.

[Just Jim]

Originally Posted by KYHeirloomer

Had the burglar entered my apartment, he'd be dead by now as I have the right to defend myself.

Mebbe so, Kokopuffs. And mebbe not, as both the precise circumstances and your local regs, determine that.

Most people, when self- or home-defense comes up, think "handgun." But a handgun is, in most cases, the worst choice for home defense.

The problem is, most people who buy a handgun do not take the time to become proficient with it. The think a gun, alone, is a deterrent. Not so. If you have not trained yourself to the point where it's use is automatic, then you may as well not have one.

More to the point, in a high-stress situation, the first thing you lose is your small motor control. The one thing you don't need to be doing is fumbling around with a safety. So on that level, a wheel gun actually makes more sense than an auto.

Finally, most people aren't looking to shoot anyone. If there's an intruder in the house they just want 'em gone. Once you start waving a large-bore handgun around you mostly don't have a choice. Most bottom feeders are well aware that even though you have a gun, you're probably not prepared---mentally or physically---to shoot. So the pistol, alone, does not serve as a deterrent.

For home defense, the best choice is a cheap pump shotgun (get one at the pawn shop, rather than the gun store). Cut the barrel down even with the magazine tube. Then put it under the bed in a combat-safe position.

The security system you've just created is, btw, illegal. So don't go using that shotgun to hunt quail.

Come circumstances like yours, you grab the piece and jack the round home. I guarantee even if it's the middle of the night, and a bottom feeder is where he doesn't belong, and even if he's never been near a shotgun before in his life, he will know what that sound is. And he's gone! And if not, a shotgun is such an intimidating weapon that the choice of shooting or not is yours to make.

Why is it so intimidating? Because, in a low-life's mind, there is a particular kind of reasoning. He knows, with a handgun, that you are not likely to squeeze the trigger, and that if you do, you'll more than likely miss. But like most people, he also believes, erroneously, that you can't miss with a shotgun at those ranges. So whatever he's doing, he'll stop and say sir.

Cautionary Warning! Anyone who chooses a firearm for self- or home-defense had better familiarize themselves with the legal concept called "in gravest extreme." That's what determines when lethal force is, or is not, justified. And do not depend on the cops or local police chief to fill you in on this. Most of them do not understand it, and will give you bad advice. Find somebody who truly understands it---a criminal lawyer, or home-defense consultant.

While I would use the word "many" where you use the word "most", I basically agree.
Shotgun is the best idea for home defense.
Requires less accuracy, less likely to be deadly after missing and going through a wall, etc.
I have a 12 guage pump in the bedroom as well as a 9mm with 17 rounds ready to go.
A .snubby .38 is in the office, and a compact .45 goes with me most places.
I believe everyone should become proficient with whatever their choice of weapon, and be comfortable with it.

[DC Sunshine]

koko - glad you are ok

DC

[kokopuffs]

I'll tell ya', I really like snubbies since there's no worry when it comes to firing the next round. No BS like the stuff when it comes to auto-loaders.

[Just Jim]

Yeah, and my .38 also has a shrouded hammer, so it won't snag on the draw.
It's a cute little thing.
Oh, and it has laser grips.

My Glock 36 (the compact .45) also has laser sights, different than the grips though.
Gots to love your toys.

[kokopuffs]

'Stead of lasers I just get some glow in the dark paint and apply a thin, glow in the dark line atop the slide. Then when the perp hits, I point my unit at the roof in order to get a line of aim using the illumination. Then, I draw down on the bastid.

[bughut]

I tried to walk away and say nothing....Look how succesful that was

I'm glad you're ok KoKo. It must have been scary for you. Sounds like you would have dealt with the intruder tho, as you sound as though you're comfortable with your guns.

Whats worrying me is that it seems everyone has them and that there is so much potential for accidents to happen where innocent people get hurt or killed.

Cautionary Warning! Anyone who chooses a firearm for self- or home-defense had better familiarize themselves with the legal concept called "in gravest extreme." That's what determines when lethal force is, or is not, justified. And do not depend on the cops or local police chief to fill you in on this. Most of them do not understand it, and will give you bad advice. Find somebody who truly understands it---a criminal lawyer, or home-defense consultant.

Rubbish story to highlight KYH's Cautionary warning:-

There was an old boy in England, who after many burglaries on his property in the countryside, decided to buy a shotgun. Next time the thieves broke in, he let them have it. He killed a man and injured the accomplice.

The old man went to jail. And whilst serving his time he was duly sued by the injured guy for loss of earnings.
Police declared he was a career burglar!!!

Folk in the Uk obviously have the same problems, but in general, most of us dont keep guns in the house

[kokopuffs]

Yes, many people lack the comfort factor and therefore the perp is shot, like the "trigger went off" OMG. In chambering a round I chant the mantra: finger off the trigger you **** fool and so far it's worked for me. But up to now chambering a round and drawing down is a very very heavy/profound experience that I hope no one ever has to endure. Notches on my firearm aren't a source of pride.

And in my law enforcement experience NOTHING will ever come down to that split second moment where it's just you and the perp. I mean, what would a normal person have done. Unless you're there, mixed in with that spilt second moment, you just don't know. It's that split second decision where their barrel looks as if it's being drawn down on you... GO FIGURE.

And THAT'S why decisions go in favor of the law enforcement official. You weren't there; I was.

[KYHeirloomer]

>I've put 30,000 rounds thru my 45, cast my own bullets and reload my own ammunition. Furthermore, I am POST certified and currently work in law enforcement and I KNOW the local laws. <

Surely you're not suggesting that this makes you at all typical---even for law enforcement personnel, let alone just plain folks.

And that's the main point. Most---or, if Jim prefers, many---people are totally unrealistic about what's entailed in self-defense. How many folks, for instance, who earn their CCPs, ever visit a range after qualifying? There's a mental process they go through that says, "hey, I'm carrying a big gun, so I'm safe." Until they have to use it.

Cops can be almost as bad. New York used to have four practice ranges. All you had to do was show up, and the department even gave you the ammo. They had to close three of them for lack of use. The attitude was, "when they pay me for my time, I'll go practice."

And THAT'S why decisions go in favor of the law enforcement official. You weren't there; I was. Sorry, but there is no way you can compare a firefight involving law enforcement people and a shooting involving a private citizen. Given the state of today's courts, you will always have the benefit of the doubt (as you should!), but the opposit is not true for the citizen.

As to cops being sources of the right info, again, you are less than typical. Just a couple of weeks ago I heard of a case where the local police chief told somebody, "if you shoot somebody outside the house, first tear your wife's blouse, drag the body into the house, and then call the police."

Yeah, right! Try something like that and you are definately going away.

as well as a 9mm .....

My son used to say, "9 mils are OK for Europeans. But for dangerous folks, you need a .45."

Don't know as I fully subscribe to that view. But I'm not big on 9mms. Seen too many of them bounce off plate glass windows. It pleases me no end that many departments are moving away from them and back to larger bores.

I really like snubbies since there's no worry when it comes to firing the next round. No BS like the stuff when it comes to auto-loaders.

That's basically my attitude about wheel guns overall. Not much to go wrong with them. The simple drill is point & squeeze. Then do it again if necessary.

Far as I'm concerned, the only benefit to auto-loaders is that they carry bigger magazines. But the question is, do you really need that many? In a firefight, maybe. But in combatting an intruder? I don't think so. When there's a bottom feeder in the living room, if 5 or 6 rounds won't do it, 14 ain't gonna do the job neither.

One nice thing about snubbies, especially the larger bores like my .44 Special, is that if you're on the wrong side of them you can see the nose of the chambered round. Intimidating as all get out.

Speaking of intimidating. Friend Wife's favorite home-defense piece is a Model 25 with a six inch barrel. She's a snip of a girl, standing 5'1". Thing looks like a cannon in her hands. And, if need be, that .45 Colt punches a very big hole.

[Just Jim]

Nothing more intimidating than the sound of a pump shotgun ratcheting in a silent house.
Not sure I'm going to have to put many rounds through plate glass, but I guess someone could come in with a pane as a shield.
My wife's uncle used to tell her to keep only 3 rounds in her .357, "if you need more than that, you're screwed anyway".
The most ridiculous thing I've heard, as is "if 5 or 6 rounds won't do it, 14 ain't gonna do the job neither".
Many home invasions involve multiple perpetrators.
Also, many people who are fully trained can still fire off an errant shot or two.....I'd hate to die for lack of firepower.
And yes, the word "most" has a completely different meaning than "many".
I do believe that many people exhibit the behavior you describe.
I'd have to see some hard facts to believe that "most" do.
But I'm with you, bigger is better, as far as calibre goes.
My fave is definitely the .45

[HappyFood]

I feel sick







Happy Thanksgiving and Merry Christmas

[kokopuffs]

Alright I think that we've beat this dead horse enough. At least I have.

[KYHeirloomer]

Jim, I'd say any differences we have are merely personal preferences.

What you have to understand, though, is that I deal (or used to, when I was consulting on this stuff) with people who have little or no familiarity with firearms but who suddenly decide "I need a gun in the house for protection." Nowdays we can extend that the myriads who pursue CCPs.

In the U.S. there are 200 billion of them, and only a handful of the rest of us. So, yes, the word "most" does apply.

When you're working with people like that there are questions that must be answered, and criteria to consider, that you wouldn't even think of when a gun-nut is involved----although, truth to tell, many gun nuts are nowhere near as good as they think they are.

The hardest lesson to teach is that having a gun in your hand, of itself, is not necessarily a deterrent. That, indeed, it often creates an erroneous sense of self-confidence that can lead you to trouble.

If anyone believes that merely carrying a gun is protection, ask kokopuffs why we want the biggest, toughest folks we have assigned as street cops. And why any cop with the brains God gave a turnip, going into a bar fight, wants a shotgun in his hands.

Back in the late 19th century they used to say, "God made men but Colonel Colt made them equal." It wasn't true then, and it isn't true now. But, unfortunately, far too many people believe it.

To be an effective means of self-protection, you have to be both physically able to shoot, under high-stress conditions, and be mentally prepared to do so. For most (many, if you prefer) people, neither of those conditions prevails, let alone both of them.

The typical (non gun nut) home owner who buys a handgun does not take the time to become proficient with it. It takes a lot of hours at the range, and a lot of bullets down the tube, to do that, and they are unwilling to devote the time and energy.

And I stand by what I said. Unlike in my house, where intruders found there at night will be found there in the morning, most people do not want to shoot anyone. They just want them gone. And the sound of a 12 gauge shell being jacked home is often all it takes to accomplish that.

In the relatively rare case where both conditions can be met, a handgun can make sense. That's when you start talking about the relative values of type (wheel gun or auto) and caliber.

As to amount of firepower, we can, if you like, discuss the differences between home invasions by rabid gangs and other types of intruders. Being as most of the time you'd be talking about only one or two low lifes, and given their proclivities to flee at the slightest sign of resistence, then I stand by what I said---if one cylinder from a wheel gun won't do it, neither will a full clip from an auto.