More whole wheat problems

[Nostalgia]

Another thread reminded me of my recent 100% whole wheat bread semi-failure. I took away some good ideas from it, but maybe my personal experience will bring out some new ones.

This recipe is from The Bread Baker's Apprentice, by Peter Reinhart. This is the second time I've made it, and the first time was exactly the same.

Dough is King Arthur whole wheat. Yeast is Fleischmann's IDY. I know the yeast is good, as I've used it in breads since with no problems (I keep it by the pound in the freezer).

Here's the dough ball after kneading. Temp is 79 F, and it passes the windowpane test.


Here it is after it doubled in size, about 2 hours, I think.


I then divided the dough in half, and shaped them for sandwich loaves.


Here's the failure part: they roughly doubled in size, but never crested the pans. After forming them, they seemed too small in the pans. I'm not sure if it was my forming process, the recipe, or what. I've emailed Mr. Reinhart, but have not received a reply.

Here's what they looked like after proofing in the pans:


And after baking (TicTacs for scale):


And the dense, chewy crumb:


Any suggestions are welcome!

-Joe

[skilletlicker]

Nice Pictures. Off topic but what kind of camera did you use?

I've ordered the Bread Baker's Apprentice but don't have it yet. Can you post the ingredients list? Can you describe the kneading/development process?

Oh yeah, I used Suzanne's link to Amazon to order.

[scott123]

As far as whole wheat bread goes, the crumb doesn't look that dense to me.

A listing of ingredients would help.

It's hard to tell by the picture, but the dough looks a little bit tight. For an airy crumb you'll want it a little slacker, I think. Was the dough sticky?

And, I hate to sound like a broken record, but the density of the loaf is almost identical to every bread I've ever made with King Arthur's bread flour. It could be the brand of flour.

This probably isn't causing your problem, but have you considered either scoring a line down the loaf or lines at a diagonal? You might get a little better oven spring. Also, did you bake the loaves on the silpat/cookie sheet? The insulation from that much material might impair your oven spring as well.

P.S. After taking a look at your finished bread and remembering back to my experiences with King Arthur's flour a thought occured me. I've never had a KA bread collapse on me. It always seems as if the gluten is too strong/unextensible and the CO2 that the yeast creates doesn't result in enough pressure to stretch the gluten. More water helps, but then it can get too sticky to work with. A little extra oil can help weaken the gluten a little/make it more extensible. Did the bread take longer than normal to double/proof?

[Nostalgia]

Scott,

Thanks for the suggestions!

Originally Posted by scott123

As far as whole wheat bread goes, the crumb doesn't look that dense to me.

It's not terrible, but I definately expected taller loaves.

A listing of ingredients would help.

I'll try to get that tonight.

It's hard to tell by the picture, but the dough looks a little bit tight. For an airy crumb you'll want it a little slacker, I think. Was the dough sticky?

It was a little tacky, but not sticky. I've been moving towards wetter doughs in general, so I'll definately try it here.

And, I hate to sound like a broken record, but the density of the loaf is almost identical to every bread I've ever made with King Arthur's bread flour. It could be the brand of flour.

This loaf was 100% whole wheat. I'm suprised to hear of your experience with KA bread flour, though. I use it quite a bit, and have never had a problem with dense loaves.

This probably isn't causing your problem, but have you considered either scoring a line down the loaf or lines at a diagonal? You might get a little better oven spring. Also, did you bake the loaves on the silpat/cookie sheet? The insulation from that much material might impair your oven spring as well.

No, the pans went right on the middle rack of my oven. There was zero oven spring. I'll try slashing one next time to see what happens.

A little extra oil can help weaken the gluten a little/make it more extensible. Did the bread take longer than normal to double/proof?

Yes, the recipe says you can use oil/egg in it optionally. I decided to omit them to see how it went. I'm going to try your suggstions above, first, before enriching the bread. It did seem to take longer than the recipe stated for a double proof, but I attributed that to my cool kitchen.

Thanks again,

-Joe

[KyleW]

You should be seeing reasonable volume expansion during the second rise.



If not, you won;t get the open crumb you are looking for. This is 100% whole wheat. While I was tweaking the recipe I was using vital wheat gluten. I've since stopped using it and the results are the same.



As to flour brand choice, I use KA Bread flour exclusively in my breads that are not 100% WW.

Have you checked your oven temp? My last oven was off by more than 25º, caused me all kinds of problems

[Nostalgia]

Originally Posted by KyleW

You should be seeing reasonable volume expansion during the second rise.

That was my problem. After forming, my loaves were much smaller than yours look (great pix, btw). They did almost double, but stopped short of cresting the pan. I let them rise for almost an extra hour, with no new activity. This may have starved the yeast, and caused the lack of oven spring. So I'm not sure if the recipe is just too small, or if they really should triple. I'll take pix of the pre-risen loaves next time. Yours are gorgeous!

Have you checked your oven temp? My last oven was off by more than 25º, caused me all kinds of problems

Yes, I use an oven thermometer. Luckily, mine's always within a degree or two, as long as I let it pre-heat long enough.

-Joe

[KyleW]

They did almost double, but stopped short of cresting the pan.

What size pan are you using and how much dough are you putting in it?

[Nostalgia]

8 1/2" x 4 1/2" pans, as specified in the recipe. I'm not sure of the amount of dough. I'll check it when I get home.

Thanks,

-Joe

[Nostalgia]

Ok, I'm trying again. This time I'll weigh the dough ball, and the finished loaves. I'll make a new thread with the results. I've got my soaker on the counter, and poolish in the fridge.

Thanks,

-Joe

I like your pics folks but I have no clue how to get mine on here . I have some of ww sandwich loaves made from the BBA by PR and would love to post them on here but need help???

IMHO and in my experience so far the bran in the flour as KyleW says is the enemy. The whole idea of kneading is to develop the gluten structure in order to trap the co2 gas which is what helps the dough rise . So once you have that structure established I think you have to be gentle in handling the dough for shaping to preserve it ! . You see the nice crumb in Kylew's loaf ? If you degas completely you will lose that.

Also once you have your first rise ,again IMHO, you have to be gentile during the shaping process or you will start to destroy that wonderful gluten structure you just so painstakingly set up . This will cut down on your oven spring and contribute to a dense and smaller loaf too.

Speaking of oven spring . I use a baking stone and the addition of steam through the use of a cast iron skillet filled with lava rocks(an ol KAF trick) that I think really has a positive impact on oven spring. The steam ,among other things will pospone the development of the crust long enough for the dough to "Spring just a little higher .

Dough slashing is good ! You need to probably buy a "lame" (the official tool from a catalogue) or just get your self some single edge razor blades. I think that with the application of heat and subsequent creation of pressure the gas is now trying to get out and all the slashing does is to sorta give it a suggestion as to where to go like a road sign . It will also make your loaves look a lot nicer too. Just wet the edge or your blade right before drawing it through the dough . Pull it at an angle of about 20 degrees or so.... not straight down into the loaf.

I'm usually around 60% hydration but what does it for me is preserving that gas . I'll say it again ....if you're too rough with the dough once it has risen your looking for trouble . With white flour you can get away with this because the bran has already been removed so there's no negative impact on the gluten structure. I use my fingertips ,gently dipping them in my bench flour and then slowly ,gently create my sheath and then place the loaves in the pans (I use 8"x4"pans). My loaves usually weigh around 20-22 oz right before going in to the oven.

Dough and room temperatures will have a direct impact on rise times so be patient ! A watched loaf takes forever to rise. Try to catch your bread's rise on the upswing going into the oven . Fully proofed dough is over proofed dough IMHO...and as far as rise goes has no where else to go once once in the oven but down .

Overoxidizing of your dough by overkneading will hurt you too. Once you go past the right amount of kneading time the moisture in the dough is starting to come back out again and the gluten structure is starting to break down. Your dough temp is also starting to rise and this speeds up the oxidation process .This is why I do an autolyse before kneading for 20 min. This helps for a more even and complete hydrating of the flour before you start kneading so you in effect don't have to knead as long. The end results of overkneading ....your bread will not have the volume or moist texture you want . I did this for a month before iIfigured out what was going on . My recipe had not changed but the results sure had and that drove me crazy. Just when you think you have something finally mastered and you think you can move on to another challenge it comes up from behind and bites you in the pituti....Don't ask me what a pituti is .....I don't even know myself but it sounded right ! lol

It's all in the books! Authors such as Peter Reinhart,Jeffrey Hamelman,and Rose Levy Beranbaum to name a few have all the technical info you could ever want and will give you a much better understanding of the process so you can prevent mistakes and become a much more consistent baker. Bread baking seems to be a life long learning process and I am still learning plenty ! I made a lot of door stops until I started reading. All us bakers seem to have our own subjective opinions on how to get the best results and so we will not agree on everything ....lol With lots of reading and experimenting eventually you will find your way to what works for you !

These are all just my own experinces and humble opinions ! Just take what you need and leave the rest ! I hope I was able to help some ! Good Luck ! Foodi