Sour Confusion

I've been trying for some time to make a sour, but without success. Today I spoke with an old German baker who informed me that if I smell alcohol, as I do in mine, it is no good, and to throw it out. Boy I'm really confused because most of the books I've read on the subject say I will smell alcohol at some point in the process. 1st question, can it be saved? It also does not make a sourdough bread????? This German baker, while he was extremely kind and friendly [ he even gave me 1lb. of his sour ] his accent was quite thick and I was not able to understand how to make his sour more sour, which is my second question. WhatI have is 1lb. of some thing that indeed smells of sour, it is amost as thick as modelling clay and is a tannish/grey. I also bought a loaf of his sourdough and though it tastes good it is not as sour as I would like. He also says to never leave it out overnight but all my books say otherwise. Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks.

[kokopuffs]

The book entitled ARTISAN BAKING ACROSS AMERICA gives simple instructions on making your own sour starters and how to incorporate them into bread doughs.

Another forum member, KyleW, has loads of experience with starters. OH KYLE!!!

[momoreg]

There are many way to maintain a starter, but the alcohol smell is a good thing, and leaving it out at room temp. is the only way for it to fully develop. If you leave it in the fridge, that will only slow down the activity. There is a lot already posted on this topic in the Baker's Dozen forum.

Good luck!

[kokopuffs]

I've only made one starter. At first it exuded the perfumy aroma of beer. Later on, the aroma evolved into a "white vinegar" smell - still okay by sour standards. The starter should not, however, smell rotten.

[KyleW]

My experience with starters is born of trial and error. I have always been able to detect the smell of alcohol in my starters. Alcohol is a bi-product of the fermentation that makes the starter a starter. The other bi-product is carbon dioxide. As far as the sourness of the starter goes, I've read that the wetter the starter the more sour the loaf. There are two acids at play in the starter, acetic and lactic. Acetic acid is where the sour flavor comes from and in a wetter starter it will outweigh the lactic acid.

Ric- you mentioned that your starter was the the consistency of modeling clay? That sounds like an "old dough" starter or a firm starter. In my limited experience, a firm starter is an intermediate build an the way to a finished dough. Mine, even in its dorment state is much more "fluid". When I use my starter I use either a 50/50 flour/water refreshment or a 4/3 ratio by volume (3/4 by weight). Did your German baker give you any formulas that use his starter? That might help unravel the mystery of what you have.

If you get lucky, The Big Hat will chime in. He was huge in my understanding of all this wild yeast stuff. If you want to grow your own from scratch, it can be done in 5 days with little fuss. I have posted the wisdom and formula of Peter Reinhart on my site.

I have indeed tried the starter recipe in Artisan Baking Across America but without success. I'm quite sure that the starter I got from the old German baker is a sour. The problem is that it is NOT very sour. I would like to make it more sour. How can I do that?

[KyleW]

The one on my website is from Crust & Crumb, although the process looks similar. I just read the intor to the sourdough section in Artisan Baking. She says acetic acid likes a wetter environment. I am sure I read the opposite somewhere. Assuming she knows more than I do (hard for me to believe) That might help explain why your "gift" is not too sour. Are you retarding your shaped loaves? She says that in addition to a wetter environment, acetic acid likes it cold.

[thebighat]

Sour that looks like modeling clay is probably a rye sour, which I think are typically fudgier than white flour sours, at least mine is. Thanks for the kind words, KyleW. And I wanna know, where did you get the bannetons? I was consumed with envy when I saw your pix and have a few bucks to blow right now, and some new yeast in the reefer, and some fresh flour, and, finally, some time off.

[Kimmie]

I would bet King Arthur's, TBH.

Kyle W. You asked if I retard my loaves. BY that I assume that you mean do I refrigerate my formed loaves. No. Is that important?

[KyleW]

That's what I meant and I think it's very important in developing the sour flavor you're looking for. What I read says that the sour, acetic acid thrives in the cool temps of the fridge. Bt cooling the loaves you retard the activity of the yeast while allowing the flavors to develop.

TBH- Kimmie is 1/2 right. I got the smaller ones (1- 1 1/2 lb) @ King Arthur. The big ones (2+lbs.) I got at Bridge Kitchenware . They also have good prices @The San Francisco Baking Institute .

[kokopuffs]

BigHat:

As Kyle mentions, THE SAN FRANCISCO BAKING INSTITUTE offers bannetons at the lowest retail prices that I've seen anywhere. My recommendation is to email your order to them since their spoken english is a bit spotty. Nice people however.

After several weeks of feeding my alledged sour I now have something that produces a loaf that is just barely sour. Kyle W. says to retard the finished unbaked loaf by refrigerating it. I tried this and it seems to help a bit. What is the exact procedure for baking such a loaf? How long do I need to let it set at room temp before baking? And also, how do I make my sour more sour?

[KyleW]

Loaves that have been retarded over night should sit out for about an hour. This will allow them to come up to room temp. They should then be baked in a hot oven, 475 for the first 10-15 minutes and then 425 for 20-30 more. I'm not sure how you are refreshing your starter. I use 4 parts flour to 3 parts water by volume. This works out to 3 parts flour to 4 parts water by weight (an astute observation from Peter Reinhart). This ratio gives me a nice sour flavor. How long are you fermenting the dough before you shape your loaves?

Kyle W. For my free-form loaves I mix all my ingredients ( sour, flour, water and salt ) in my kitchen-aid then let set (autolyse) for 30 min. I then knead with the dough hook on #4 for 5 full min. At this point I have a silky smooth dough that I can pull out into a gluten window. If it feels a tad slack I will finish by hand with a tad more flour. I lightly oil a bowl, put in the dough and turn it over to coat with oil, cover and ferment about 2hrs. If I think that it is too slack I will fold it several times during fermentation. I then punch down, round it and let set 20 min. I then form into whatever shape I might want. I let rise at room temp until doubled. Though I did try your suggestion of letting it rise retarded a few days ago and it did help a wee bit with the sour flavor, but it was still a very very weak sour flavor. Last night I baked a loaf with another "sour" that I found in Madeleine Kamman's book p.1050 She claims that the recipe using 1 c. flour, 1/2 tsp yeast & 1/4 tsp cumin with enough water to make a slack dough will turn sour and be usable in 4 days yesterday was the 6th day and I was not terribly impressed, again just a hint of sour. I'm sure not having much luck with sours.