[kokopuffs]

Hi to all and TIA.

The most recent issue of COOKS ILLUSTRATED did an article on tarts. The tart pans that gave the crispiest and brownest crust were the ones made of a black metal. Where can I get those as well as black metal breadloaf pans?

thx,
Terry

[ June 29, 2001: Message edited by: kokopuffs ]

[Svadhisthana]

Koko,
I found black tart pans at a local gourmet food store here in town. You could try at William Sonoma. Good Luck.

[Kimmie]

Williams-Sonoma Bakeware

[W.DeBord]

Using the dark metal is like using glass they absorb heat differently (easier) so it's as if your baking at a high temp.. Well you could just raise your oven temp 25 degrees and get the same effect... or bake longer... or put your tart on the bottom shelf of the oven to bake ...or prebake your shell before adding filling.

Actually I certainly would NOT recomend anyone buying the darker bake ware. Depending upon what your baking it can also kill your product too. You'll live to regret that purchase.

P.S. DON'T BAKE COOKIES ON THEM! They also tend to make your items stick to their surface. So to prevent that they use these incredible non-stick surfaces...which create a bad baking enviroment for items that need to cling to the pan to rise properly.

My two cents...I hope you wait to hear more bakers before you spend your hard earned money.

[kokopuffs]

Thanks, DeBord. FYI the phenomenon in question is called BLACK BOX RADIATION: the darker the surface the hotter it radiates (in 25 words or less).

Your advice and experience is taken seriously so I may stick with my 25 year old tin colored tart pans.

Do I understand that standard heavy duty gauge metal loaf pans, like Chicago Metallic, are sufficient for breadbaking? Mine don't have the nonstick surface.

[mudbug]

Interesting W.DeBord, perhaps you should consider writing Cook's Illustrated. I think your comments would be something they would be interested in. Are there scientific findings, trials, studies, to support your input?

[ June 29, 2001: Message edited by: cchiu ]

[momoreg]

Incidentally, I was reading the "must read" website that mbrown recommended, and there's a lot of info under the heading "radiation". It gives a few experiments to try, as well as an explanation of why dark objects get hotter.
http://www.bakingandbakingscience.net/temp.htm

[kokopuffs]

Cchiu:

It appears to me that DeBord possesses sufficient experience as a baker to address the article in CI that I cited.

Not wishing to start a conflict, I would consider, although I haven't the time, rewriting CI's recent article on knife sharpening. Their research into the subject lacks depth. Definitely shallow. The magazine omitted some serious information pertaining to grit and lubricants. The lack of effort in consulting technical expertise for such a relevant article is, to say the least, a disappointment.



[ June 29, 2001: Message edited by: kokopuffs ]

[Kimmie]

To continue m brown's thought, Europeans definitely like their breads darker (as opposed to golden like here in America). That would explain their love for black pans!

I have two stickless black loaf pans that I use but only for specific breads.

[monpetitchoux]

I think the fluted tart pans are falling out of fashion with professional bakers. Lots of bakers are now using plain ring molds for molding tart shells. I personally prefer the look of the plain ring mold. I also wouldn't recommend the dark finish in baking. Tart doughs are different than pie doughs. Tart doughs are like sugar cookie doughs and should be cooked like cookies. I never bake on dark surfaces because it causes the bottom to turn brown faster than the top. What I want is a nice even golden brown throughout the shell, rather than just the surface. The tart dough should be rolled out to a nice thickness, not too thick but not thin either. I can't emphasize enough that the shell should have color (and therefore, taste). Americans tend to underbake our crusts because of the Southern tradition that the lighter color of your baked product signifies that you've used the expensive whiter flour rather than the darker flour. I've never had a problem with the light colored steel for my tart doughs. As a matter of fact, I want the tart shell to cook evenly and pick up color evenly. Lighter color bakeware does the job for me. On the other hand, I do have mini loaf pans from Chicago Metalic with dark non-stick finish. I use those mostly for brioche because I want the color on the crust. But for everything else, the dark finish bothers me a lot. Particularly when I bake quick breads. I lower the oven temp to get a more even product. If I bake at recipe specified temp, the outside cooks faster and turns too dark while the inside finishes cooking. So you've got two professional pastry people thumbing down the dark finish. I'm with WDB.

[m brown]

for quick, crisp baking, use the black pans. if you want a dark crust on your bread, black pans. i could see using them for pullman loaf to give an even golden color all around.
in england i went to a seminar at Renshaw co.
they liked the black pans for biscuts and cookies.
it all depends upon what you are looking for!

[fontzmark]

The Chef I worked for in Denmark had fluted, dark metal pans by the 100's, I personally like them, I think you get a better crust, especially for tart doughs, but I am not an expert by any means, I know they are going to burn on the bottoms, so I just put them on one or two sheet pans, seems to work well.

[momoreg]

If an oven has higher top heat than bottom, the dark pans can do just the trick. I can't tell you how many times I could've used dark pans in my convection at work. I ended up having to over-brown the top of my tarts, to ensure that the bottom was not gummy.

[W.DeBord]

Almost any pan can be used...you learn and adjust your style or recipe or the oven temp. or the way it cooks by putting a pan underneath to defuse heat, etc.... I could use all dark pans and adjust my temp. and style and I'd be just fine baking anything in them.

BUT, BUT for suzy homemaker who doesn't really understand whats happening when they bake and is already a bit scared to bake turning them all on to dark pans is not a responsible lead. Plus, most ovens bake from the bottom.


If you open all of you baking books you'll notice that MOST of them give a suggested list of equipment for the reader. Show me ONE baking book that recommends dark pans for baking (not breads)? You can't! I can in fact reference you over a dozen that specificly cautions it's readers from using them.

Not everything published in Cooks magazine is good info.! Many of their baking recipes are just down right bad! They read well, I'll give your that, but bake them through and compare them to other recipes....they always have paled in comparision to other well respected professionally written baking books written for homemakers....compare Rose Levy B., Debbie Fields, Torres, Deslaniers, Julia, Malgereti, Clayton, Hoffmen, Sorosky and the list goes on... to Cooks Illustrated! There is no comparision! Better yet reference me the great baking books published by the BAKING writers at Cooks?

I'm sorry if my words sound offensive, I am pasionate about baking and I do have years of professional experience. I don't know exactly how many more years of experience the writters at Cooks have then I, maybe they don't?

[Isa]

Today's episode of America's Test Kitchen program is on pie and plates.

Holiday Pies Making a foolproof pie crust for pumpkin and pecan pies; pie plates.