Help! My bread isn't fluffy, what am I doing wrong?

I read through the thread re: the Silverton starter. I too tried to make this starter as I have a grape arbor in the back yard. After a few days i got scared that it wasn't doing much, so I added a bit of dry yeas and it started to bubble more, but it turned a taupy-grey instead of yellow as it says in the instructions. I continued on and fed it for the three days, but since it seened to be too watery I used a little more flour and a little less water.
So the I tried to make the bread. I sort of had to guess at the quantity of ingredients since the bread recipe with the starter recipe just sys mix starter, flour, water, etc - no amounts. Ok, so I look up quantities in my bread machine book, and I knead and rise. It rises really well. Then I bake. I guessed at 375 for about an hour.
It's bread, but the crust is really hard and thick, not chewey; and inside it's coarse and pebbly. more like a quick bread than a French or Italian loaf. And it's a funny taupy-tan- grey color.
All my bread seems to be this way whether I use a starter or yeast or a bread machine or oven. So what am I doing wrong, and how do I get a nice fluffy, chewy crusted, white bread

[KyleW]

...to tell what's going on with out a little more info. Can you post the formula you used? One thing I noticed is the oven time and temp. Everything I've read says these hearth breads are best baked at high heat. I start mine @450-475. I back it down to 425-400 after twenty minutes and then check after another 15 mins. Very rarely is the bread in the oven for more than 45 minutes. If you want to see my trials and tribulations with wild yeast check out my site.

[momoreg]

I hope you are willing to make the starter again from scratch. There are about 4 or 5 days where you won't see much activity, but that doesn't mean that something is wrong. As it matures, more gas develops, and the fragrance becomes more yeasty. When you added the packaged yeast and flour, you essentially 'diluted' the the rising power of the starter. There are formulas in her book that do call for a mixture of starter and fresh yeast within a recipe, but that is a fully developed liquid starter. Once you thickened it with flour, you changed the properties of your final loaf, and had less rising power as well.

[m brown]

fluffy bread? ok, listen, here is a basic non-sour bread:

1 cup flour
1 1/2 cup water 110 degrees F.
1 1/2 tsp dry yeast

make a slurry in a non-reactive bowl at least twice the size of the mixture and cover with plastic wrap, let bubble for one hour.

place on mixer with dough hook or place in a bread machine and add:

2 1/2 cups flour
1 TBL malt syrup *
2 tsp salt
2 TBL olive oil
1/2 tsp lemon juice fresh

Develope for 12 min on low to med speed or press start on bread machine.

let rise for 40 min.

shape and let rise for 35 min. set your oven to 400 degrees f.

bake for around a half hour to an hour, till it smells really wonderful and the colour is to your liking.

*malt syrup is so great for bread, gives that great flavor!!!

lemon juice gives the yeast extra kick!!!

keep it simple!

[Risa]

kwalby: I think I read somewhere in Silverton's book that the only way to really destroy an established starter is to give it yeast. I don't know if established is the key word there though. My starter was also a taupe-gray and very watery and I did panic momentarily until Kyle suggested to just keep going with the recipe as stated. The only time you really should panic is when you get mold and even then, you only have to carefully remove all the mold. I was lucky enough not to get any mold at all but I made sure to clean absolutely everything before I started. I have a nice healthy starter now. It still is watery on the first feeding but usually nice and foamy by the last feeding.

As for the bread, the only comment I have in addition to the other more expert replies is that you need to create steam in your oven for a nice crust. Silverton likes the spray the oven walls and shut your oven door quickly method but I prefer throwing ice cubes in the bottom of the oven. Either way, you create steam.

[roon]

Oh! Ice cubes on the bottom of the oven! How clever! I love it! Wish I'd thought of that before...would have saved me much frustration.

[Risa]

Forget the ice cubes on the bottom. I have since been corrected and you should NOT use ice cubes since it lowers the oven temperature. We had a discussion on this recently and the best way seems to be adding HOT water to a preheated pan and spraying the oven walls a few times during the first few minutes of putting your bread in the oven.

[mudbug]

kwalby,

I agree completely with momoreg.

Try your starter again. You can't expect your bread to turn out correctly if your starter isn't correct. Have faith in the recipe. Nancy Silverton has been called the best baker in America for a reason. Trust her, don't change a thing.

So what am I doing wrong

You're not following Silverton's instructions.

One of the most important qualities any bread maker needs is patience.

I have made this starter myself, and you won't see much happen until the end so don't expect it to look like much until the last day. The length of time it takes to create the starter is what makes this bread exceptional. This allows the flavors to develop and meld as does a long rise time. I know we're all used to things be can buy and eat instantly, but there's a lot to be discovered in old traditions that take time.

Follow the instructions completely and see what happens. Then if you want to vary the recipe, go ahead! It's always better to know what the results of the actual recipe are before changing it. (Kind of like the "control" in a science experiment.)

If you don't want to wait so long, try the 2 day starter. It won't taste the same, but it will be quicker.

Also, I would stick to spraying the oven walls precisely when called upon in the recipes as opposed to ice cubes or water. This is the best replication of steam injection for home ovens. Do not spray the bread or light bulb directly. Yes, ice cubes and water are easier and work for certain breads, but if you're going thru all this work, you might as well do it right.

Download and print this Bread Starter Schedule it may help you.

Below are the original starter recipe and a variation on the starter recipe.

Please note that the recipes featured in “Nancy Silverton’s Breads from the La Brea Bakery” are not for the beginner — the easiest recipe takes two days to make, and many require three. But if you are committed to learning how to bake the perfect loaf, her book is indispensable.

Nancy Silverton’s Grape Starter

2 cups bread flour
21/2 cups unchlorinated water
1/2 pound unwashed organic red grapes, stemmed

Wrap the grapes in well washed cheesecloth, tying the corners to form a bag; lightly crush them with a rolling pin (to release the sugar to mix with the natural yeast on the skins; just like making wine!) and immerse them in the flour water mix. Cover tightly with a lid or plastic wrap secured with a rubber band. Leave at room temperature for 6 days, stirring once or twice a day for six days.

The bag of grapes will eventually appear inflated, and liquid will begin to separate from the flour base. The mixture will begin to taste and smell slightly fruity, and the color will be strange. That is as it should be. By the sixth day the bag of grapes will have deflated, the color will be yellow, and the taste pleasantly sour; the fermentation is complete. The starter is living but weak, and it needs to be fed.

Remove the grapes and squeeze their juices back into the starter. Stir it up thoroughly and transfer it to a clean container. (Although you can use it after just one feeding, the starter will be stronger and healthier with the full treatment) You can refrigerate it until you're ready to proceed.

Three days before you plan to use it, stir 1 cup flour and 1 cup water into the container, blending well. Let stand uncovered at room temperature until it bubbles up — 3 to 4 hours — then cover and refrigerate. Repeat this the second and third day.

Store the starter tightly covered in the refrigerator where it will keep perfectly for 4 to 6 months, after which it’s a good idea to pour off all but 2 cups and give it another feeding. Before using the stored starter for bread, however, give it the full 3-day feeding schedule once again to restore it and to tone down excess sourness.



Nancy Silverton’s Rustic Bread

22/3 cups lukewarm water (70 F)
2 cups plus 2 tablespoons white sourdough starter (or grape starter)
1 teaspoon packed fresh yeast
72/3 cups bleached white bread flour
1 tablespoon sea salt
3 tablespoons cold milk
3 tablespoons extra-virgin olive oil
semolina flour, for dusting

Place 21/3 cups water, white starter, yeast and bread flour in the bowl of a mixer and stir with a rubber spatula or wooden spoon, just to moisten. Fit the mixer with a dough hook and mix the dough on medium speed for 6 minutes. Turn the mixer off and allow the dough to rest for 20 minutes.

Add salt and mix on medium speed for 2 more minutes, scraping down the sides of the bowl with a rubber spatula as necessary.

Place milk, olive oil and remaining1/3 cup water in a small bowl and stir together. With the mixer on low speed, very gradually add the liquids to the dough. Don’t add the liquids too rapidly or they will slosh out of the bowl. Continue mixing on low until the ingredients are completely incorporated and then beat on high speed for 4 minutes.

Cover the bowl with plastic wrap and allow the dough to ferment at room temperature for 2 to 21/2 hours, or until it reaches the top of the bowl and doubles in volume. Sprinkle the work surface heavily with flour and pour the dough out to form a rough oval. Sprinkle the top of the dough with flour, cover it with a cloth and allow it to rest for 20 minutes.

Cut 2 pieces of parchment paper approximately 12 x 16-inches and place them side-by-side on the work surface. Sprinkle the papers heavily with the semolina, then with bread flour. Uncover the dough and sprinkle the top with more bread flour.

In a single continuous motion, cut the dough with a dough cutter into 2 equal pieces, carefully pulling the dough apart with your free hand as you go. Without pausing, carefully scoop up 1 piece of the dough, using the dough cutter and your free hand to hold each end, and lay the dough on a pieces of parchment paper, allowing the dough to stretch as it falls to form an oblong shape approximately 8 x 10 inches in area and 11/2 inches thick. It’s more important to get the proper thickness than the right width or length. Repeat the procedure with the second piece of dough.

Using your index fingers, dimple each piece of dough at random 2-inch intervals, being sure to press through all the way through to the parchment paper.

Lightly sprinkle the dough tops with bread flour and semolina. Cover each with a cloth and allow them to proof at room temperature for 2 hours. Test for readiness by lightly pressing two fingers into the dough. The dough should feel soft and alive, not longer sticky.

Open the oven door and heavily spritz the oven with water from a spray bottle and quickly close the door. Keeping the parchment paper under the dough, slide the baker’s peel (a large baking spatula) under 1 piece of dough.

Open the oven door, slide the dough and the parchment paper onto a pizza stone and quickly close the door. Spritz and load the second piece of dough in the same manner as the first. Turn the temperature down to 450 F. Spritz the oven with water 2 more times during the next 5 minutes. Refrain from opening the oven door for 15 minutes.

After 15 minutes, slide the peel between the bread and the parchment paper and remove the paper. Return the bread to the baking tiles and rotate if necessary to ensure even baking. Continue baking another 5 minutes. With the peel, flip the bread upside down to allow even browning. Bake another 5 to 8 minutes for a total of 30 to 33 minutes. Remove the loaves from the oven and place them on a cooling rack. When the bread is cooled, dust off excess flour.

Source: “Cooking with the Masters of Food and Wine” by Kathleen DeVanna Fish ($34.95)
Yield: 2 loaves

Look here to read the entire article titled: Artisan Breads

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Grape Expectations

As a guest baker at The New England Culinary Institute recently, I witnessed the feeding of a grape sourdough starter. It was "grapey" and pungent - not too acidic or yeasty. I was inspired.

No one has done as much to put grape sourdough on the map as Nancy Silverton. She runs The La Brea Bakery in California and she has written a number of books (See: Breads From The La Brea Bakery). Her grape-infused starter became quite the rage a few years ago. The recipe below is my adaptation of the original. Silverton calls for additional yeast, which I used. You may wish to experiment without it, but give the rising dough more time.

This bread does not rise high. It is flat, riddled with holes, with an eggshell crumb and a slight translucence to it. All the dough is mixed in a food processor and you will need a high capacity machine. The dough is literally poured out of the processor onto a baking sheet. Silverton suggests wild or organic grapes be used. None were available to me. The generic variety produced great results. A touch of organic flour and spring water are recommended. My "mother" starter gives birth to new loaves almost on a daily basis. Each loaf you bake,teaches you more about bread. Have fun.

Our gargoyle goblet is a hand-made delight from Prince Edward Island Canada. Available from Specialties Canada.

Starter:
1 pound of stemmed red grapes - wrapped in new, clean cheesecloth (rinse cheesecloth in
cold water before use)
2 cups bread flour
1/4 cup organic bread flour
2 1/2 cups spring water - room temperature

Feed with:
water and more bread flour

(For more instructions, questions & answers and background see our feature: In Search of Sourdough )

Bread dough:
2 cups grape starter
7 cups (2 pounds) bread flour
3 tablespoons milk
1 cup spring water - room temperature
3 tablespoons olive oil
2 1/2 teaspoons yeast dissolved in 2 tablespoons of warm water
1 tablespoon salt (I used kosher)

To make the starter (six days before): Wrap grapes and crush gently with a rolling pin to release juices. Whisk together water and flour to make a pudding-like mixture. Swirl in the bag of grapes. Pour whole affair into a large canister or bowl and lightly cover. Stir once a day and leave for six days.

On day six, remove grapes, squeezing out excess liquid. Stir starter and start feeding it. For three days thereafter, once a day, stir in a cup of flour and a cup of water. Let stand at room temperature. On day four, it is ready to use. If you do not want to use it then, cover and refrigerate.

To make bread, measure out flour and place in food processor. Add 2 cups of starter and mix to combine (about 20 seconds). Add remaining ingredients. Process (20 to 30 seconds) to make a wet dough, adding more water if required. Let rest 5-10 minutes. Process again for 20 seconds and then turn out into a large, lightly greased bowl. Place bowl inside a large plastic bag and seal lightly. Allow to rise for at least 2 hours. If you chose not to add yeast, the rise will take several hours.

To bake, preheat oven to 500 F. Stack two baking sheets together. Flour a piece of parchment paper. Ladle dough onto floured parchment. Cut dough in half and gently shape into two rectangles. Using the parchment paper as a lifter, transport dough to baking sheet. Atomize with water, then bake. Spray every 3 minutes for first 15 minutes. Bake until well browned (about 30 additional minutes). Cool 30 minutes before slicing and serving.


From: Better Baking

Bread Machine Sourdough - à la canadienne

This recipe makes a rustic loaf in what I call the "canadienne" style. It is crusty, not as airy as a baguette. This dough makes outstanding pizza too. A nice way to reduce fuss and use your grape starter (or any starter) in your bread machine. To feed your starter for baking, take it out the night before and let it warm a bit. Add one cup of water and one cup of flour. The next day, take out the portion of what you will be baking with and refrigerate remaining starter.

1 1/2 cups starter
1 1/2 cups water
2 teaspoons yeast
3 to 5 cups bread flour
1/2 teaspoon malt powder (optional - available at home brewing supply stores)
2 teaspoons salt
1 teaspoon sugar
2 to 4 tablespoons olive oil
2 tablespoons semolina flour (available at bulk food and health food stores)

Place all ingredients in the machine and process on "dough" cycle. Form dough into a large ball or two smaller ones and place on parchment-covered doubled-up baking sheets (one inside the other). Spray dough with non-stick cooking spray and insert the entire affair into a large plastic bag (a clean trash bag is fine). Allow to rise until almost doubled.

Preheat oven to 500F.

Slash the loaf, dust with flour and atomize with water. Bake and atomize two or three times within the first 5 to 8 minutes. Reduce heat to 450 F. after 12 minutes and bake until the loaf is very browned (35 to 45 minutes).


From: Better Baking



Look here for a wonderful thread concerning the same topic.

Good Luck!

[roon]

Bummer. Well, back to putting pans of hot water in the oven...