[Jock]

Originally Posted by chris.lawrence

I'm sorry BDL i know you're a very experienced chef, and your insights are extremely enlightning but I must disagree with what you said here... A cake is not a cheesecake, a cheesecake is in fact a dense custard, the slower the proteins in the eggs combine, the more delicate the texture. If you bake a cake (with leavening) with the same method, heat will react with the leavening (most efficiently at 60degC) but the eggs will not begin to coagulate until 78-80degC and the starches will not Gelate until around 100deg.
What that means is the lower the temp, the more air is produced will a lack of structure to hold it.

Keep your heat high I say.

Given the very small quantity of cake flour and the instruction to mix it into the batter "just until combined" it is clear that this cake's structure is not from flour protein. Therefore the structure is from the egg protein, (hence the similarity to a cheesecake) so how would you recomend treating this kind of cake?

Thanks

[chris.lawrence]

Originally Posted by Jock

Given the very small quantity of cake flour and the instruction to mix it into the batter "just until combined" it is clear that this cake's structure is not from flour protein. Therefore the structure is from the egg protein, (hence the similarity to a cheesecake) so how would you recomend treating this kind of cake?

well the idea of a cheesecake to lose the air (we don't want to stir too much because we don't want to integrate too much air into the mix) as this will cause rising and collapsing the idea of cakes is to trap the air. Its two opposites. So unless you want a very dense airless cake (which you may do) its important you do everything you can to suuport the structure of the cake to trap the air.

You're right that the proteins of the flour are not giving the cake its structure, but there are two structural qualities to flour; proteins and starches, in cakes we want to encourage the starches but discourage the proteins. The starches gelate at around 100degC, which means they swell with water and bind to amylose proteins in the eggs, the fats, sugars and air. The trick is to get it to the temp as quick as possible without burning the outside of the cake.

I would reccommend a series of experiments to work out exactly what the problem is; get an oven thermometer to make sure you know the exact temp and bake between 175-190deg C (depending on how shiney your cake tin is). Cool slowly (i would remove from the oven but not from the tin for 20-30 minutes) and then rack it.

If your cake is collapsing then your recipe is based off a different set of ingredients (perhaps flour) and you may need to add a little more flour for stucture. (I would add flour before adding extra eggs. As the gelated starch is more important here.)

And see how it goes: all I can say is don't be afraid to break the mould of your recipe, and experiment a little; but try and be precise with your measurements so you can reproduce them in the future. Good luck!

[Jock]

Originally Posted by chris.lawrence

well the idea of a cheesecake to lose the air (we don't want to stir too much because we don't want to integrate too much air into the mix) as this will cause rising and collapsing the idea of cakes is to trap the air. Its two opposites. So unless you want a very dense airless cake (which you may do) its important you do everything you can to suuport the structure of the cake to trap the air.

You're right that the proteins of the flour are not giving the cake its structure, but there are two structural qualities to flour; proteins and starches, in cakes we want to encourage the starches but discourage the proteins. The starches gelate at around 100degC, which means they swell with water and bind to amylose proteins in the eggs, the fats, sugars and air. The trick is to get it to the temp as quick as possible without burning the outside of the cake.

I would reccommend a series of experiments to work out exactly what the problem is; get an oven thermometer to make sure you know the exact temp and bake between 175-190deg C (depending on how shiney your cake tin is). Cool slowly (i would remove from the oven but not from the tin for 20-30 minutes) and then rack it.

If your cake is collapsing then your recipe is based off a different set of ingredients (perhaps flour) and you may need to add a little more flour for stucture. (I would add flour before adding extra eggs. As the gelated starch is more important here.)

And see how it goes: all I can say is don't be afraid to break the mould of your recipe, and experiment a little; but try and be precise with your measurements so you can reproduce them in the future. Good luck!

Thank you chef. All good, sound advice.