Asorbic Acid

[roon]

Going back to my "sufficiency" mindset here-

Other than citrus fruits, what are good sources of vitamin C? Things that would work well in bread, of course. Liver, although high in vitamin C, probably wouldn't be the first choice of many people, plus I'm not sure how well it would work. If I live in the North and I'm growing my own stuff, citrus trees won't be high on my list, simply because of the climate.

Aren't berries high in vit. C? Off to check...

[Athenaeus]

Do you use it kokopuffs? Lemon in your dough?

Report back to us soon.

I just liked this style! No quote!

[kokopuffs]

No, I don't use it yet but may include some in my recipe in the near future.

[roon]

Found some! Now it's just wondering how the juices of each fruit would translate into taste in the bread... man, I will be a busy bee trying stuff out! This will be fun!

Fruit vitamin C sources

Berries

[Athenaeus]

Well roon I don't want to be a ...Kassandra but... I don't think that they will taste well.

Waiting for the results of your experiments Dr. Roon

[roon]

Personally, I think you're right, A. But, since no one ever believed Cassandra's prophecies (though she was always right!) I think I'll try anyway. After all, it's like my motto- if you don't ask, you'll never know. And, if you don't try, you'll never know.

(Dr. Roon, huh? I don't think so! Not by a long shot! I just like to try different stuff.)

[thebighat]

According to Calvel, ascorbic acid "reinforces the physical properties of the dough and hastens its maturation. Furthermore, it increases the forming and handling tolerance of the unbaked dough pieces and promotes the production of larger volume loaves since it allows them to be baked at a higher proof level. "
He goes on to point out that it is destroyed by heat, no trace of it remains, has no influence on the development of flavor and since it accelerates maturation, it's presence can indirectly limit the formation of organic acids which contribute to the development of the taste of bread. So, don't go nuts with it.
If you've ever stood in front of a table with 40 or 60 rolled-up logs of French bread which absolutely resist being shaped into baguettes without tearing, then you would appreciate more "handling tolerance."
Check my math...I wanted 40mg ascorbic acid per kilogram of flour. I only have a grain scale to weigh small amounts. 7000 grains per lb equals 15 or so grains per gram. The dough I made had 45 oz of flour, which is 1.27 times a kilo, so I multiplied 1.27 times 40, which is almost 51, and since a stock solution of 1 gm to 1 liter of water gave me 1 mg per ml, I used 50 ml, or about 1.75 oz, and deducted that from my formula water.

[Athenaeus]

Thank you THB

The science has spoken, Roon, no room for prophecies!

But I would appreciate some feedback of home bakers

[thebighat]

And the answer is... I just baked off three of Bread Baker's Apprentice Italian bread, with the ascorbic acid added, and I think there is a discernible difference as far as loaf size goes. They took a lot of proofing, I mean they withstood a lot. The first two loafs kind of split a little, but the third one, which had to wait that extra half hour to bake, came out perfectly symmetrical. I proofed them in bannetons and I make four slashes on top. Nice breads. Two are gone already.

[KyleW]

According to:

Shirley Corriher "...it helps in gluten development and produces lighter breads."

Bernard Clayton "French flour gets no chemical treatment whatsoever except for minute additions of asorbic acid, which strengthens the dough and gives the loaf more volume."

Joe Ortiz "...is used by French bakers to give their dough a property called "tolerance". ("How much rising time can a dough tolerate before it collapses?") ...Vitamin C gives tenacity to a limp weak bread dough-- providing the strength th permit full development of the loaf."

Beth Hensberger "Vitamin C strengthens weak flours and yeast loves it."

Raymond Calvel "Asorbic acid reinforces the physical properties of dough and hastens its maturation. Furthermore, it increases the forming an handling tolerance of the unbaked dough pieces and promotes the production of larger volume loaves since it allows them to be baked at a higher proof level."

[KyleW]

Compare the crumb in the two French breads. Guess which one had Vitamin C added?

[Isa]

From Cookwise:

On Additives:

Many of my recipes contain one or more unusual ingredients. I see no reason not to add natural healthful ingredients that improove bread volume or taste. My additives are ingredients that are readily available in most locations at grocery stores, drugstores, or health food stores.

Vitamin C
Because it helps gluten development and produces lighter breads, I frequently add a piece of a crushed vitamin C tablet. Page 11

Oxidizing And Reducing Agents
Vitamin C work in conjunction with oxidizers - whether oxygen, iodates, or potassium bromate - to improove gluten development. Since tiny amounts of vitamin C can improove gluten quality and is a healtful nutrient, I frequently add it to recipes. Page 57

Homemade Dough Improvers - A combinaison Of Effects
Dough developers or dough conditioners used by commercial bakers and millers may contain citamin C (absorbic acid), inorganic salts, some form of sugar, and possibly potassium bromate for better gluten cross-linking. One of the sough developers that I have seen frequently in French bakeries in the United States is from Belgium and contains dextrose, vitamin C, and other oxidizing agents.

You can simulate a professional baker's dough improovers for yeast breads in your own home baking by proofing yeast with a little sugar and adding a crushed vitamin C tablet just before kneading.

For even more comprehensive dough improvement, add vitamin C for better gluten developments; an egg yolk for antistaling and better gluten development; 1/4 teaspoon ground fenugreek, rosemary, or cinnamon for enhanced yeast activities and better keeping qualities; 1 tablespoon sugar to feed yeast; and 1 teaspoon barley malt syrup, which contains enzymes to convert flour to yeast food. Page 93

[ddick]

I know you have "The Village Baker" by Joe Ortiz, but here is what he says about acid ascorbique for those who don’t have it:

Vitamin C

The same magical powder that we Americans ingest in massive doses in hope of avoiding the common cold is used by French bakers to give their dough a property called tolerance. (“how much rising time can a dough tolerate before it collapses?”) A wet dough that undergoes a fermentation of between four and six hours is likely to collapse if it is not put in the oven at the precise moment it is ready. Vitamin C, acide ascorbique, gives tenacity to a limp, weak bread dough – providing the strength to permit the full development of the loaf.

Ascorbic acid is added in the most minute quantities, to a maximum of fifty milligrams per quintal of flour (one quintal is 100 kilos), or as a friend who is an oceanographer-turned baker put it, two hundred parts per million. In everyday baking terms, this works out to about 1/8 teaspon in 100 pounds of flour.

[roon]

Wow. A little sure goes a long way, eh?

Will have to try adding vit. c to my breads....

So much to do- so little time!!!

[Athenaeus]

Ok. OK!!!

You persuaded me. They are in the oven. I made 2 loaves of French bread and I experimented with Greek "village bread"

I went down town this morning , hoping that in my "pure country" we don't sell such things !!
I got back home with specific direction on how we use asorbic acid in baking I also brough a tiny scale that pharmacists used to use.

BTW all of you ESPECIALLY TBH and Kylie are beyond comparison!You are great bakers, I bow humbly.

I will bring a loaf to you to sign on it Kylie, kind of autograph

When I went to your site to see your results, I realised what your signatures means