The Pie's The Limit

[panini]

believe what you want. Everybody here is a book expert anyway. I've been doing this for a few months, so what the **** do I know. All of you, Go read some more books! Until you understand that the people who write books are not gods.
Rachel,
I'm telling you that if you visit 80% of the real bakeries in the US you will find them using a blend of flour for their pastry flour. It is not cost efficient to stock pastry flour. I'm sure someone will give you all the tecnical reports on the subject but what I'm telling you is the real world.

[john]

Panini: You are incorrect about your "home" version of pastry flour. Pastry flour has properties intermediate between those of all-purpose and cake flours. It is milled from soft wheat for pastry-making, but can be used for cookies, cakes, crackers, etc . And it differs from hard wheat flour in that it has a finer texture and lighter consistency. Protein varies from 8 to 9 percent.

Your mixture may suit your baking tastes, but you'll have much better results using pure pastry flour. John

[thebighat]

Not cost effective at 12 bucks for 50 lbs?
That's cheaper than potting soil. Dirt, in other words.

[panini]

Yes, let me concur, I'm an idiot. I love to be classified as a HOME baker. Like I said, what the **** do I know?
I can't believe I have been making inferior products all this time. There is no blending in the making of pastry flour? Hum I learn something everyday. But I'm sure some of the experts will post something in print. Oh, I'm in the south, I wonder if that has anything to do with flours? Hum? Could the wheats be harder in the North, Chicago, MA.
Don't post back to me, I've had it. bye
I'm going to have to call all myfriends and tell just how stupid they are too.

[panini]

the key word being stocking not cost. Thank you for belittleing me some more. The idiot

[snakelady1]

Having just opened a bakery a few months ago I have been using AP flour for my pies.... no one in twenty miles is even making their own pies so mine are wonderful I have a beautiful flaky crust and people are raving over my pies...... panini I value your input and as I have both cake and bread flour in my kitchen I am going to give it a try..... on a more personal note you do seem to be very angry lately or maybe its just the way you want to come across If you need to get something off your chest I am a great listener feel free to email me or I will just keep my big fat nose out of your business either way thanks for the idea

HISSSSSSSS

[panini]

No, there is nothing here to make me angry. I'm just old and crotchity. I ususally don't post on something I don't understand. I know for a fact that some of our flours down here are blended. Our local hard wheats here are very soft as mostly in the south. Ask all the snowbirds in Florida and they will all tell you"why can"t they make bread like NY" I'm not one for all the technical stuff you can fill your head with. I can feel, touch, and smell a flour to understand what it will do in a formula.
I'm all for furthering ones education on any subject, but to emerse yourself in print can be damaging. Most of the threads here are about something somebody read and another person read something to the contrary.
Most formulas for a certain item have a very common denominator. Some people have a feel for just what they can do to alter something, and some have to stick right to the exact formula. The later will usually not be able to tell you what went wrong with something or rework mistakes( a key to being a Chef)
Like I always say I'm no expert. but to call me a home baker is off too.

[thebighat]

I thought you were heading for the hills, and that would have been too bad, because all the posts I've read indicate that you certainly know your way around the bakeshop.
It seems like there were two things going on here, your assertion that 80% of bakeries make their own blended pastry flour, and that could be true, and your assertion that the stuff one buys in bags is blended bread and cake flour, and I don't think that's the case.
I don't know who called you a home baker, but they obviously haven't read a lot of your posts.
Just to set the record straight..I am an effete intellectual eastern liberal, 5 on the Enneagram, ISTJ Meyers Briggs.,.you figure it out...and I only buy a bag of Golden Shield once a season, and I only put it in cookies. I think if you have a deft touch, you can get away with all-purpose for a lot of things.

[panini]

See. there you go again. things in print, tests! Did you need those tests to figure the results?Guess how high I score on a personality test? pretty s--tty.Ask my co-workers who they would like to be in a fox hole or stranded on an island with?
John is probably right about the classification. But most places I've worked , there is usually a compaction problem in bakery storage, therefor to store pastry flour, something else has to go. Again, I'm in the south and I think this has a lot to do with it, our APF is green or crap and our hards are soft. The story of my life.
To set the record straight, I get frustrated with this site and quit it once or twice a month. Mostly because my fingers have great problems translating my thoughts. and , people quote from books to much
what the he--do I know If your using one bag a year I think the amount of added critters would change the properties. more protien?

[thebighat]

Well, I've found that in order for me to be comfortable in my own skin in what I call my life, I had to have in-depth knowledge of what makes me tick. Finding out that I am an Observer, a collector of information, that emotionally I live in a cave, has helped me figure out who I am and where I'm going. It finally gave me an answer to all those flying dreams where I hover over everything and watch, why I live in a house crammed full of books, why I have a quick answer for everything. But I hope I also have enough humility to admit it when I don't know the answer to a question. As Mark Twain put it, "I'm gratified to be able to answer promptly. I don't know." Admitting what I don't know helps me learn.

[panini]

Well I find out every day I don't know something. I'm not quick to answer but to lash out. I've made it a point never to let someone rent space in my head. I speak my peace and usually move on. I usually can't remember what I had for b'fast. I really wish I had the time to to study myself.
bighat, don't get me wrong, I have great respect for those people who dive into print to better themselves. I'm probably just a little jealous. I will be the first to admit I'm wrong, really! it happened about 11 yrs. ago.
I admit I'm wrong about the flour thing but if you run out of pastry flour try my way.

[Isa]

Panini can one make cake flour by mixing other types of flour??

[panini]

Isa, not that I'm aware of. Our apf here is somewhat soft and I have mixed it with cake for things like frangipane. apf is pretty inconsistant here.

[panini]

sorry Isa, my computer hiccuped.Like I said our apf is not very good, most of our flours are spring harvest. Depending in which part of the country you are in will make a difference( I think). Up north most wheats are winter, from red wheat. The high glutens are much better and their bread flours are different from ours. Our bread flour runs 9-10% where as up north they are probably 11-12%. Our APF are 8-9% and theirs are probably 9-11%.
Hard winter wheats are supposed to be the best, but you have to work with what you have.If your recipe calls for cake flour than I would try to find it.

[W.DeBord]

Hope you don't mind my adding my two cents also. I understand the basics of gluten but I sort of feel AT TIMES it's like splitting hairs (except when your making bread, then it's very important).

I'm sure you'll all blast me (and the line is blurred because we can't compare apples to apples here, since gluten does varie in regions), but....I mix ap with cake flour to make my pastry flour. BUT actually I don't really think it's critical to have pastry flour on hand, I never have for space reasons. PLUS I really don't believe when making pastries you have to get as intense into your gluten as you do with breads (so long as you keep away from high gluten). I really believe a light hand, good method and good quality ingredients has a far bigger impact on taste then the differences between the lower gluten flours.


The recent book called The Bakers Dozen (I think) confirms my thoughts about flours in cake. They studied cake flour vs ap flour in cakes and in general agreed that they prefered the flavor from the ap cake more often (they said they were suprised by this themselfs). This book also has a section on making pie crusts and I believe they also address the flours and gulten choices for that. I haven't looked into that in depth but I really respect the people who compiled this book and how they approached this as scienticly as possible.

P.S. I love you Panini....I know you always have the very best intents. I get frustrated too sometimes, and I really stick my foot in my mouth. This writing thing is hard, people take things literally too much. I think you need to read between the lines and see the persons intent over long periods of time. You've always gone out of you way to be helpful and teach, I appreciate it ALOT!