The Pie's The Limit

[marmalady]

Couldn't we all just agree that some of us are right-brainers and others are left-brainers, and that makes the world more interesting?! Some of us are thinkers, and love the support they get from books, others are do-ers, and learn from doing, and observation, and way things feel.

Peace and love, y'all!

[panini]

Marmalady,
I think that is exactly what makes the world go round. I'm in no way suggesting that one way is better than the other. Interesting conversation come with boths sides at the table, not telling one side they are wrong. Disagreement is vital for learning. Trust me, there is nothing here that would ever make me mad, a little frustrating maybe, but that is healthy.
This venue is great for me because I have found that I can get a little cross with people, something I have great problems in real life. Besides, when all is said and done, I'm right!

I'm enjoying a week of with my wife. So without the daily grind I would be on guard here! I may have serious opinions about everything. Except Thurs, I will fly off to partake in a little poker at the casinos.

[momoreg]

Hey panini, stop threatening to leave us...you know you never will!!

Wendy, I am in agreement with you here too. There are very few people that would be able to detect a difference between ap and pastry in most baked goods. If I really need pastry flour, I mix ap and cake. No biggie. Quality has never suffered as a result of it.

Isa, I have heard some people say that if they need cake flour in a pinch, they mix ap flour with corn starch. Don't believe them! That's a case of what panini was saying. Some people read too much, without actually doing.

[Athenaeus]

Originally posted by momoreg
Hey panini, stop threatening to leave us...you know you never will!!
.

Panini could you suggest me some books to learn about the different types of flour in the States, please??

Seriously, I will have big problem when I get there, I am taking my flour every other month from a mill (YES!!! YOU READ WELL) outside Athens...
Things are so complicated there...

[panini]

You can always check out, but you can never leave.
I'm sorry I don't have to many reference books for flours here in the US. I'm pretty sure Kyle would be the one for that.
There must be some sort of flour site out there. RBA might have something. I'm sure the FDA will have something.
Get ready for a change though. A lot of our flours ard bleached, enriched, washed, dried, ironed and folded.
I'm old school, Amendola, people like that. I'm sure there is somebody writing about flours.

[KyleW]

Yes, most of our flours are enriched. But you can avoid most of that other nasty stuff. To get an idea of what is available here take a look at King Arthur Flour's web site.. Or you can visit Bob's Red Mill. These two companies are both retail and mailorder. They offer a wide variety of unbleached, unbromated, organic flours and whole grains.

[panini]

Kyle,
Thanks for that KA site. I use the K A Special and thought it was the only thing available to me here. I put a call into my salesperson to see about getting some of the other flours to try.
It is considerably higher in price than the local stuff. Do you think thats because I'm in Texas or is it high in general?

[KyleW]

I think KA stuff is generally a little more expensive. They have never done me wrong and I'd rather pay up a little and know what I'm getting.

[panini]

Yes, I agree. I really like the idea that you can track the flours.
You know we can get some patent flours from up north, but without some way for the consumer to track the age and the shipping conditions they are just as unreliable as our local stuff. I'm switching to the cake flour immediately if I can get it. If the % is exact as they say, it will certainly beat what I'm using now.

[Isa]

Thanks for the flour advice Panini.

Momo,

I’ve heard of replacing part of the flour with starch. In Perfect Pastry, Malgieri uses starch in some of his cakes. In The Art Of The Cake, the authors advice replacing some of the flour by potato starch,


Cake made with American all purpose flour are sometimes too coarse and not tender enough because the flour contains too much gluten-forming proteins. We have developed a simple rule of thumb to remedy the problem using potato starch: For one ounce (25g) all purpose flour substitute 1/3 ounce (10g) potato starch plus 1 large egg yolk. The potato starch replaces the starch in the flour and the protein in the egg yolk are a non gluten forming replacement for the proteins in the flour. The result is invariably a cake with a finer crumbs and a moister and more tender texture…. We have used this substitution with great success in the classic pound cake and in génoise

[momoreg]

Hmmm...interesting...and the results are the same as you'd get with cake flour?

[panini]

Isa,
I'm not understanding, but that is nothing new.

If my genoise calls for 3lbs flour . What would you substitute? 2 lbs of flour and 1lbs of potato starch and 16 yolks. Is this something you do all the time or are you quoting from a book? I'm also not understanding why not use a flour with less protien like cake flour.

[cape chef]

Your posts.

I have loved reading this thread!!!
I have learned a great deal.
Thank you
cc

[Isa]

I was quoting from The Art Of The Cake by Bruce Healy and Paul Bugat…

You are right Panini it doesn't make sense. Not presented like that anyway. Should this be a master formula it should be consistent right? I mean for 25 g flour you would have 10 g starch and 1 yolk. (Sorry can't get it straighter)

………………………………Flour………Starch………Yolk
………………………………-in grams…in grams

English Cake ………………110 ………17……….…..0
Génoise …………………...…175 ………20 ……..……7
Génoise Log ……………….125 ………10 …………...1
Malgieri Génoise……………57 ……….21…………...0
Lemon Cake………………..140……….30……...… ..2
Pound Cake…………………200……….10…………...1
Savoie Cake…………………50………..50…………....0


Checking the recipes, it's not consistent. Here is the ingredient list for the génoise recipe from the book, for two 9 inch rounds baked in cake pans or two 8 1/4 inch rounds baked in cake rings.

7 large eggs, at room temperature
2 egg yolks, at room temperature
8 ounces (225 g) sugar
6 1/4 ounces (175 g)all purpose flour
3/4 ounce (20 g) potato starch
1 ounce (30 g) unsalted butter barely melted

The pound cake, for a 6 cup loaf pan, is as follow:

8 ounces (225 g) unsalted butter barely melted
8 ounces (225 g) superfine or extra fine sugar, chilled in the refrigerator
4 large eggs, at room temperature
1 egg yolk, at room temperature
1 teaspoon (5 ml) vanilla extract
7 ounces (200 g)all purpose flour
1/3 ounce (10 g) potato starch

Conclusion? The guys are better baker than mathematician. Even if the American is a former physicit... The French one is a pastry chef owner of the Patisserie Clichy.

More seriously the recipes are good. I never looked at it that closely before though. Does it make a better cake? To know for sure one has to make two génoise one with starch and one without. One day I'll have to try it.

[panini]

Well I think that the formula is a good substitute for not having cake flour. on a small level. My 20 qt genoise recipe is the smallest I have.